Regarding the "torture" of terrorists-lmao-obama/pelosi's latest obscenity

[Reverend Scott]

I have several points to make here, so bear with me folks. The latest radical left attempt to discredit America is an obscenity.

"Torture" involves injury and at least pain- there is/was NONE of that done to foriegn extremists.


Point #1.) ALL of the members of congress, including obama and nancy pelosi were briefed over 30 times, regarding the methods used to extract information from the insane terrorists dedicated to killing American citizens(and many citizens of other countries as well). Every member of congress approved those gentle methods of extractiing information.


On September 11, 2001, we were all New Yorkers-the world got a little colder that sad day.


Point #2.) The United States does NOT "torture" any foriegn prisoners. The methods used at Guantanamo Bay are not even vaguely close to anything that can be called "torture", lmao. There were NO injuries, no beatings, etc. only the illusion of harm, while medical personell stood by.

I personally have been physically tortured by American law enforcement personnel more than once, Lmao- We treat those prisoners better than our own police forces treat American children. I started receiving broken bones and shoulder dislocations from American cops when I was 15, and never bothered to file a lawsuit, because no one cares what America does to Americans.

I didn't have a doctor standing by at 15 when I was handcuffed and beaten by 4 cops in my own front yard, breaking my ribs and dislocating my shoulder for the first time.


And-lmao- ask John McCain and I about what REAL torture is.


Point#3) Thousands of American lives(and others)) have been saved as a result of these absolutely harmless psychological interrogation tools that ALL members of congress approved.




Point #4) Chavez and Castro actually engage in real torture, and obama has strengthened them lately by begging to be their buddies, while he attempts to prosecute good Americans who did their constitutionally mandated duties to save lives.

We live in absolutely insane times where the current administration is destroying America from the inside with insane rhetoric and anti-American sentiment. Obviously obama has spent far to much time around ayers and wright and other outspoken attackers of American values, and America itself.

[Boer]

[quote=Reverend Scott;5030468]Point#3) Thousands of American lives(and others)) have been saved as a result of these absolutely harmless psychological interrogation tools that ALL members of congress approved.
[quote]

You seem to be confusing correlation with causation. Simply because we were not attacked during the time this was going on does not mean that we were not attacked because of it.

[Reverend Scott]

[quote=Boer;5031958][quote=Reverend Scott;5030468]Point#3) Thousands of American lives(and others)) have been saved as a result of these absolutely harmless psychological interrogation tools that ALL members of congress approved.

You seem to be confusing correlation with causation. Simply because we were not attacked during the time this was going on does not mean that we were not attacked because of it.

Uhm...I am confusing nothing, friend. Planned attacks on Los Angeles and Brooklyn were thwarted, and a terrorist cell was discovered right here in the U.S. Kinda hard to NOT see that as saving thousands of lives ( a direct correlation .

[Thema'zandaar]

"Torture" involves injury and at least pain

No. Torture can be physical, mental or emotional. The essence of torture is to break down the victim to get him/her to do what you want, ignoring whether the desired result is right or wrong. One particular detainee had a panic attack in prison simply because he had to listen to the screams of other people for months - he was ready to do anything to get out of there. That's torture too.

[SorelusImperion]

Perhaps you should ask the GESTAPO or the SS to help you out. If the USA doesn't have the balls to torture Hitler's finest surely have.

[Visna]

Perhaps you should ask the GESTAPO or the SS to help you out. If the USA doesn't have the balls to torture Hitler's finest surely have.

They do already. Only these days they're not called Heinrich, they're called Ahmed. But the principle is the same.

[SorelusImperion]

Only these days they're not called Heinrich, they're called Ahmed....

or George and Dick.
Sieg Heil Kamerad
the Muslim Untermensch has to learn his place in the world.

[antaeus]

thought it could add to the discussion... sorry if its old news ... but i have just been reading about the water boarding controversy and ww2...

the controversy stems from john mccain's statement that us judges convicted several japanese officers to death and others to life sentences after ww2 for torturing pows. the charges for all included, and in some cases were limited to water based simulated drowning or water boarding...

if this is indeed the case, then it blows away all controversy over whether water boarding is torture... as there is precedent in us law that has already tested it in the 1940s and found that its bad enough to sentence someone to death over...

perhaps this is the origins of obama's move to reassure people that nobody who did questionable actions under the last government would face trial... because under the rule of precedents which us courts run by, they would be found guilty.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/paul-b..._b_191153.html

i havent read much about this so i'd love it if people had oter sources either contradicting or backing up this...

[Da Skinna]

Turn around and see the rot, tell the lot to look ahead and by God they've forgot.

[C-Rob]

lmao and lol, the two words that completely destroys any semblence of respectability from a post.

[Farnan]

Abuse of detained persons is immoral, illegal, and unprofessional. Those who engage in cruel or inhuman treatment of prisoners betray the standards of the profession of arms and the laws of the United States. They are subject to punishment under the Uniform Code of Military Justice. The Geneva Conventions as well as the Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment agree on what is unacceptable for interrogation. Torture and cruel, inhumane, and degrading treatment is never a morally permissible option, even in situations where lives depend on gaining information. No exceptional circumstances permit the use of torture and other cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment.

From a very liberal book

[Bovril]

"Torture" involves injury and at least pain- there is/was NONE of that done to foriegn extremists.

Even if it were true torture has to involve physical pain, your claim would be false. Waterboarding is intensely painfull in some cases, and can result in broken limbs from strugling. The simulation of drowning can be experienced by you if you so wish. Ask some one to try it out on you. Aside from waterboarding, stress positions are basically designed to be painfull. Dress it up as 'discomfort' all you like. Again, I encourage you to try it out for hours every day for a month.

Also, you assume that these people are "insane terorists". Untill such time as they have been tried in a court that uses standard US practices, such a claim is holow at best. Besides, if these people rally are insane, wouldn't it be better to give them psychiatric treatment? Or where you merely using flailing hyperbole?

[The spartan]

By all means, use torture to defend a system that would no longer be worth defending because you just compromised it.

Point#3) Thousands of American lives(and others)) have been saved as a result of these absolutely harmless psychological interrogation tools that ALL members of congress approved.

You do know that is IMPOSSIBLE to prove, right? If the information was extracted without torture great, if not, than that is illegal. Quite simple really. I don't know where the ideas of "getting information" and "torturing somebody to get information" became mutually exclusive.

Point #4) Chavez and Castro actually engage in real torture, and obama has strengthened them lately by begging to be their buddies, while he attempts to prosecute good Americans who did their constitutionally mandated duties to save lives.

Please, compare our current administration to dictatorships in second and third world countries. It is genius.

We live in absolutely insane times where the current administration is destroying America from the inside with insane rhetoric and anti-American sentiment. Obviously obama has spent far to much time around ayers and wright and other outspoken attackers of American values, and America itself.

The only anti-american rhetoric here is the condoning of torture. I have never in my days of such anti-americanism. May I ask you why you hate America and her values so much?

I didn't have a doctor standing by at 15 when I was handcuffed and beaten by 4 cops in my own front yard, breaking my ribs and dislocating my shoulder for the first time.

Either you were resisting arrest or that was police brutality (which is illegal).

[Adhamh Ashashi]

Hang on, you wouldn't file a lawsuit because Americans don't care..... What country you living in buddy? Americans will sue their own mothers if she stepped on their grass wrong.


Nice try though, I thought reverends were not supposed to lie...... YOU'RE GOING TO HELL!!!!

[Disaray]

So this water bording stuf saved lives did it? It is efective you say? That is intresting. You see in those memos that were published not to long ago they said that the information was aquierd prior to any "enhanced interogation". If we put that aside for a moment and examine the efectiveness of these methods for gaining actionable information we will also see an intresting factoid: These individuals were water borded more than 150 times in all caises, and as many as 200. I am no expert in intaragating people, but that dosen't sound very efective.

If all these "inhanced methods" aren't torture why have people been convicted of torturing people after useing these methods by US courts and the Nuremburg courts? Hell if water bording isn't tourture or a means to cource confesions or other false statements why was it invented by and used extencivly in the Spanish Inquasision to cource confesions from accused witches?

By the metric of point three I have saved 6 billion people by eating cookies on the couch just last week! Just try and prove I didn't! By that metric Obama is way better than Bush at keeping us safe from terroists; under Bush we were attacked by terrorists three times, that I can remember, right here in America. But while Obama has been in charge there have been no attacks, that is 300% more safe.

Point two is incorect as well. The US signed a treaty under Clinton, and the congres ratified it, that stated we will not tourture and water bording was listed spacificly as a form of torture, as well as sleep dperivation and stress possions.

Point one is technicaly incorrect as well. Not all of congres was briefed on the whole torture thing, only people on the right commities were, and by right commitie I mean commities that are involved with intelagance and defence, the chair of the Ag commitie didn't get invited for example.

In all honsty defending tourture is kind of ed up in general and defending tourture as a means of gathering accurate, actionable, information is just dumb. It makes me sad to see how low some people have sunk these days. This country was founded on principals, and unless I realy missread the founders on this one, tourturing people wasn't one of them. Add on to that the fact that tourturing poeple dosen't get the job of info gathering done and wastes a lot of time in the doing and serves to piss people right the off I can't understand why the idea was ever seriously considerd. Personaly I hope the people that were responcible for all this mess hang for it. Not due to political diferances they have with me, but beacouse a message has to be sent to any would be leader of this country that if you break our laws you will be punished swiftly and with the full force of those laws and that no one is above them.

[green tea]

I always seem to repeat myself, as everyone else in this debate that now rages for years. I will repeat now what I have said many times before.

The USA are the worlds first Republic. In their history, they fought against tyranny and were the first to accept the rule of law and the rights of all humans. That is something that the US citizens can be proud of. Now, to defend those "american values", the USA has to lower its standards down to those of third world dictators? That is a smart move, because then, there is not much left to defend. Where are the human rights that have to be defended when you destroy them by your own actions? Maybe some people in the USA believe that they are right, but with such a move, there is no more difference between them, and for example the taliban (who also defend their soil and families by all means against foreigners, no matter how immoral their actions may be). If the USA loses the moral highground by accepting criminal actions, the USA is criminal and no longer worth to defend. If you defend your family against criminals and murderers by acting like a criminal and murderer, you may feel alright, but everyone else will start to see no more difference between you and the people you fight. I know, this is obviously a very complex concept, too hard to understand for most people. Which says a lot about most people.

[Disaray]

Your point, tea, could be better phrased by a clasic line: "Be careful when you fight the monsters, lest you become one... and if you gaze for long into the abyss the abyss gazes also into you."

Nietzsche can some times sum it up best.

[George W. Bush]

The torture of terrorists is sometimes necessary for the greater good of preserving the safety and ultimately freedom of American society, as well as those of our allies. It's unfortunate, but it's sometimes a necessary decision to be made.

[Stavroforos]

Forced coersion should be allowed to a limited degree, but definitely not to an extent which would betray American values, laws, and beliefs.

[Stavroforos]

Hey woah woah let's not bring the Spanish Inquisition into this.