[Decision] Open the Curia

[Calvin]

Open the Curia

Proposer: Calvin
Supporters: Acco, Empress Meg, Noble Savage, PowerWizard

Proposal

• The Curia main and Prothalamos are opened to Peregrinus with 200+ posts, no active warnings and 6 month membership.
• Peregrinus can contribute to debates and form their own bills, but cannot vote, run for Curial offices or nominate members for medals and awards.
• Voting rights remain in the hands of Citizens.
• CDeC Councillors are given moderating powers in the Curia main and Prothalamos.
• If a Peregrinus receives a warning his posting rights are automatically removed from the Curia for a period of 1 month.

Reasoning

• Peregrinus can already make proposals in the Questions and Suggestions area of the forum, it makes sense to let them do it in the Curia main.
• It would increase activity and interest in the Curia.
• I see little difference between Citizens and the unwashed masses, myself included.
• The role of the CDeC is again expanded into a more hands on council. I am a firm believer in expanding the powers of the CDeC.

Possible protests

• The Curia would be spammed out - I agree this is a danger, hence why I have proposed that the CDeC gets moderating powers to aid the Curator in keeping people in check, plus have very a very strict one month ban per warning policy.
• The Curia needs to be kept 'elite' - My previous position. However after having experienced the Curia I have come to believe that this is a false belief, and that most Citizens are not elites of the site, merely ordinary folk that have been given a badge, myself included.
• We should only reward those who have contributed - Precisely, which is why I would keep the patronisation process in place and leave the voting to the Citizens. Needing three named Citizens support remains also.
• To further alleviate fears I have put in a provision which means after a period of 3 months this must be debated upon and voted on again.

PROVISION:

This Bill will be enacted for a period of 3 months after which it will have to be put again in discussion and re-voted with any subsequent amendments.

Article III. Legislative Procedure

Any Citizen or qualified Peregrinus may table a bill for discussion by posting a thread in the Prothalamos. This citizen or Peregrinus will remain the sole proposer for this thread. Bills can take two forms:

• Amendments - A proposal to alter the text of the Constitution. Amendments can alter or remove existing text and add entirely new text.
• Decisions - A proposal for the creation of an official Decision of the Curia on any topic relevant to the functioning of TWC. Such a Decision is not binding, but the Curator should ensure (to the best of his ability) that the Hexagon Council promptly either implements the Decision, or gives an official reason for not having implemented all or part of it.

Each version of the bill requires named support from three Citizens. The final draft of the bill must be debated for at least three days in the Prothalamos before the proposer can request the bill be moved to vote. When a bill is moved to vote, the debate thread is left open, and the Curator shall post the newest draft of the bill, the name of the Proposer, the Bill's three named supporters, and a link to the debate, as a new poll in the Curia Votes forum. All bills shall be voted on for one week. Subsequent posts in this thread are limited to notification of having voted. Messages lobbying to vote for or against, including via Signatures and Avatars, are prohibited except in the original debate thread. All bills shall pass on the basis of a two-thirds majority of non abstaining votes in favour. If any bill fails a vote, no re-vote on a substantially similar bill will be permitted within twenty-eight days.

Where a Decision requires the Curia to choose between multiple options, two polls shall be run concurrently. The first poll shall be as a normal decision, the second poll shall outline the various options to choose from if the decision passes. Whichever option receives the plurality of votes shall be implemented, but only if the Decision also passes in the usual manner. Both polls shall run for one week.

All citizens are honour bound to not view the results of Curia Votes until they have themselves voted, unless necessary for the execution of any other duty to the site.

Upon passing a vote:

Amendents

The Curator shall post the text of all passed amendments in a stickied "Amendments" thread in the Tabularium and numbered consecutively in the order they pass. The poll is closed, moved to the Tabularium, and renamed to reflect the whether it passed or failed, and the numbers of votes. The stickied "Constitution" thread in the Curia is then edited to reflect the changes made by passed amendments. When a Section or Article is added or removed, all subsequent Sections and Articles are renumbered by the Curator appropriately.

Decisions

The Curator shall post the text of all passed Decisions in a sticked "Decisions" thread in the Tabularium and consecutively in the order they pass. The poll is closed, moved to the Tabularium, and renamed to reflect the whether it passed or failed, and the numbers of votes.

All Amendments and Decisions are considered to have immediate effect and no retroactive effect unless specifically stated otherwise.

Minor Formative Changes

The Curator shall have the power to amend the text of the Constitution and any Curial Decision for the sole purpose of correcting any spelling and grammatical errors that are found within the documents. The details of any such changes must be recorded in the amendments thread of the Tabularium.

Article IV. Curial Committees

Article I. Ranks

Peregrinus

The Rank of Peregrinus is conferred automatically with registration to the TWC Forums. It confers posting rights in the General Fora. Any Peregrinus has the right to ask questions and suggest changes in the "Questions and Suggestions" Forum.

Once a Peregrinus has 200 posts and has been a member for 6 months he has posting rights in the Curia main and Prothalamos.

Section IV - The Judiciary

Article I. Citizen's Behavior

The suspension and removal of a Rank is handled by the Consilium de Civitates via the following disciplinary process. No Citizen may be subject to more than one process for a single post.

Procedure


If any Citizen receives a staff warning from an Officer of the Moderation Branch they will be referred to the Consilium de Civitates for potential action. The senior moderators will appoint one of themselves to keep track of Citizen's infractions and promptly forward any new ones to the Curator for posting. The accused will then be asked by the Curator to produce a defence within forty eight hours. At the conclusion of this period, regardless of whether a defence has been received, a vote shall be opened by the Curator to conclude after four days. The options are

• Dismiss the Case
• Take Further Action
• Abstain

If the CdeC vote to take further action, The Curator shall open a second poll for four days. The options are:

• Censure
• Suspension of rank for 1 week
• Suspension of rank for 2 weeks
• Suspension of rank for 1 month
• Suspension of rank for 2 months
• Permanent Removal of Rank
• Abstain

A simple majority of non abstaining members is required for the vote to pass.

If a member is referred by another member, the process is the same, except that the accusation is substituted for usernotes in the thread, and the defendant shall receive an anonymous copy of the accusation from the Curator.

A Rank may not be removed except by the procedure outlined in this Article. Divus, Opifex and Phalera awards may only be removed by a Decision of the Curia or by the request of the rank holder.

Article II. Tribunal

To defend the rights of Members, and to ensure fair and just punishment towards those who violate the laws of TWC, a Tribunal shall be established.

The purpose of the Tribunal is to provide those members of TWC who have been punished in the past by the Moderation Branch a place to request the reversal of their punishment. This is in no way a guarantee that the punishment will be removed, but every case presented will be reviewed by a panel of three judges.

Members may create a thread in the Tribunal Forum, The Judges will study the case details, and may request any additional information on the member from the Senior Moderators. The Judges will then post the majority decision. The Judges are not tasked to decide the appropriateness or validity of a Forum Rule of Term of Service, and may only rule on whether the Term was correctly enforced and the punishment suitable for the offence.

Article III. Judges

To serve on the Tribunal, a panel of two Tribunes is appointed by the Hexagon Council. Tribunes can only be drawn from the ranks of those with at least a Silver Moderator's Mace or from those who have served as Magistrate.

In addition, three Magistrates shall be elected, one every two months for 6 month terms, by the procedure in Section II, Article II. Applicants cannot have received a warning in at least one year.

Magistrates rotate as an acting Tribune, each deciding one of every three cases. Should a Tribune recuse themselves, the Tribune chooses one of the two other Magistrates to vote in their stead. Magistrates are terminated by a unanimous vote of the Tribunes.

Article IV. Peregrinus' Behaviour

A Peregrinus who receives a warning anywhere on the site will have his posting rights in the Curia main and Prothalamos revoked for a period of one month per warning. A Peregrinus may also be removed from these fora at the discretion of the Consilium de Civitate.

[Celsius]

Oppose.

This would virtually eliminate the need and rank of citizen

[Hotspur]

Oppose.

This would virtually eliminate the need and rank of citizen

Exactly, except for the bill support, the voting, the CdeC, eligibility for Staff, the Curatorship, Tribunal Magistrates...

[Calvin]

Not at all - Citizens would remain the decision makers at the end of the day since they retain the vote. And the nice shiny badge of course.

[Acco]

Interesting. I support.

Just one question though. Under your bill, Calvin, will Peregrinii have posting rights in the Symposium, or will the Symposium remain a forum solely for citizens?

[Calvin]

Interesting. I support.

Just one question though. Under your bill, Calvin, will Peregrinii have posting rights in the Symposium, or will the Symposium remain a forum solely for citizens?

Solely for Citizens.

First off, the requirement should be at least 2 months, since the citizenship requirement is 2 months too.

Citizenship requirement is a separate thing since the right to post does equal the right to vote. However, if more people agree with you I will amend the proposal.

Even then, I couldn't imagine myself posting in the Curia after 2 months, when I barely realized how the site works and made some really bad, noobish posts. Maybe it's just me, but you can't rule that one out.

Probably some people would not post, but then there are many people who have been members here for more than a year who would.

On the other hand, it would be refreshing to hear new voices sharing their opinions about proposals, maybe even suggesting new ones, and I'm sure there are many posters out there who have good ideas, would like to contribute and are established posters.

This is what I believe, and would like to give them a chance to prove that Peregrinus can be a valuable addition to the Curia.

But I'm afraid this is not feasible without letting in spammers, trolls, flamers and other undesirable members. You can say, that even citizens can spam, flame and troll, but there's always the Citizen's behaviour part of the Constitution that restricts them to do so on a regular basis. More requirements would be needed - but that would be the role of the patronization process. I think it isn't too hard to get the citizen badge.

The Curator and CDeC Councillors would be able to issue warnings for any off-topic spam, flaming and even trolling if the Curia wished to make trolling illegal in the Curia. One warning is a full one month ban with this proposal.

Also, remember that there is the provision which means that in three months time there HAS to be a debate and re-vote. It can be revoked if it is not a success. There is no harm in trying this out.

EDIT: I think 6 months is too stringent personally, but I do like the other addition.

[Aldgarkalaughskel]

The Curator and CDeC Councillors would be able to issue warnings for any off-topic spam, flaming and even trolling if the Curia wished to make trolling illegal in the Curia. One warning is a full one month ban with this proposal.

That's okay, but I think one month ban from the Curia would be an easy way out. I suggest to make it at least three months.

Also, remember that there is the provision which means that in three months time there HAS to be a debate and re-vote. It can be revoked if it is not a success. There is no harm in trying this out.

EDIT: I think 6 months is too stringent personally, but I do like the other addition.

Reread the last few sentences of my previous post. My bad habit is to push the post button too early and chisel my posts later on.

A tentative support on my part for the 3-months trial version and with the changes I suggested (adjust the wording if necessary).

[Augustus Lucifer]

My elitist side wants to say no. My aristocratic side also wants to say no. My high and mighty side just isn't sure.

Tough decision.

[Aldgarkalaughskel]

First off, the requirement should be at least 2 months, since the citizenship requirement is 2 months too. Even then, I couldn't imagine myself posting in the Curia after 2 months, when I barely realized how the site works and made some really bad, noobish posts. Maybe it's just me, but you can't rule that one out.On the other hand, it would be refreshing to hear new voices sharing their opinions about proposals, maybe even suggesting new ones, and I'm sure there are many established posters out there who have good ideas and would like to contribute to our debates. But I'm afraid this is not feasible without letting in spammers, trolls, flamers and other undesirable members. You can say, that even citizens can spam, flame and troll, but there's always the Citizen's behaviour part of the Constitution that restricts them to do so on a regular basis. More requirements would be needed - but that would be the role of the patronization process. I think it isn't too hard to get the citizen badge. I'm not completely against the idea though. I suggest the following changes to your proposal:

Section III, Article V (I suppose?)
Once a Peregrinus has 50 posts and has been a member for 1 6 months he has posting rights in the Curia main and Prothalamos.

Section IV, Article IV
A Peregrinus who receives a warning anywhere on the site will have his posting rights in the Curia main and Prothalamos revoked for a period of one three months per warning. A Peregrinus may also be removed from these fora at the discretion of the Curator or the Consilium de Civitate.

[Calvin]

I urge everyone in Augustus Lucifer's predicament to remember the three month money back guarantee. If this goes through and the three months turn out to be a failure, then I will be the first to vote to repeal it. If it turns out to be a success then we can all pat ourselves on the back for being so brave.

[Augustus Lucifer]

I urge everyone in Augustus Lucifer's predicament to remember the three month money back guarantee. If this goes through and the three months turn out to be a failure, then I will be the first to vote to repeal it. If it turns out to be a success then we can all pat ourselves on the back for being so brave.

But Calvin it's like a paradox, what if someone gets to be a citizen for making proposals. It's like a moderator being made a moderator for moderating! Now I'm confused, someone get me a glass of water...

Hey wait. If we had Peregrinus in the Curia then I'd have someone to get me a glass of water. Support with the provision that each Citizen may choose one non-citizen to lord over and call Jeeves. Now that's my kind of democracy.

[Viking Prince]

This is a tempting proposition. I am in favor of the general idea, but I think this needs to stay and ferment a bit longer than the typical period before going to a vote. Perhaps amending the proposal every other day for the remainder of the month will give citizens time to think and support. If this goes to a vote too quickly, it will lose. This is the failing of many proposals. Our debates are often too short. If uncertain, people will vote for no change.

I am a bit concerned about removal of posting privileges. A single warning any where on TWC (including the Curia) seems harsher than a Citizen’s potential for punishment. I also have an issue about such a ban for a 0 point warning. There is also the issue of appeals. The Tribunal is under Hex and thus this would also be an issue that needs to be clarified.

[Squid]

Oppose, if the only reason to do this is so non-citizens can make proposals, then there's no need as they currently do so in the Q&S. Any proposal they make, regardless of the location, would still need 3 citizen supporters (possibly one CdeC supporter depending on the motion) and 2/3rds majority of non-abstaining votes by citizens, hence this does absolutely nothing that the Q&S doesn't already do for non-citizens.

[Augustus Lucifer]

I'd be interested to see if anyone uses a Curia Commentary Thread as a half-step measure. As it stands I've suggested the usage of an existing one or the creation of a new one to comment on Prothalmos threads in the Q&S, but non-citizens haven't taken any interest in it.

[Marie Louise von Preussen]

No.

What's with the efforts to bring peregrini into the Curia? Isn't the Mudpit spammy enough because anyone can post their twisted views there...?

[Aldgarkalaughskel]

What's with the efforts to bring peregrini into the Curia? Isn't the Mudpit spammy enough because anyone can post their twisted views there...?

Seems like you completely changed your mind on this matter, going from radical/reformist to conservative/aristocratic.

Actively help peregrini and new members on issues regarding the inner workings and regulations of the site, including Citizenship and Curial procedures. They will be defined as their main advisors inside TWC.

Since the day I came, about a year ago (June 28, 2007) the Curia neither has the monopoly in creative suggestions nor the best ideas, if any at all. It has been ages since I saw any good proposal and debate focused on making the site run and improve it, other than the self-cannibalistic ones about abolishing the Speaker when finally this body is realizing how meaningless this position was and currently is without any reform that will likely enter in conflict with the Hex, and the Curia neither has the power nor the will to win this conflict. I have seen many ones complain about how Hex does not draw any inspiration from Curia and how the Q&S has brighter ideas, even though the Q&S is merely an open advisory body, contrary to the Curia which is restricted but has comparatively more beyond mere advisory power. To me, it seems that unless the Curia comes with something meaningful and is willing to openly debate beyond posting "voted" in the polls it can have a reason to survive, but it doesn't, and I propose that the Q&S is made the sole advisory section of the site for helping the work of Hex.

Senators, Romans, lend me your ears! The current decadent Curia is unable to have any power except for an imaginary one. The Curia degrades itself discussing the same medals, ranks and petty things and gradually alienates itself from the true business of running TWC. Under imb39, the Curia still has a voice in political affairs, but that voice is being misused and is shrinking. The Hex doesn't even give a damn for what the Curia says, while previously they still seemed to bother a little.

Dear members of the Curia! Should I remind you of the Senate and the People of Rome in their last days? When nobody cared for anything above their petty noses and affairs? When nobody gave a damn while the Republic was disintegrating? Selfishness is the greatest evil of a Republic, and so as the Curia sinks into a hole of selfishness and petty grumbling, so they lose importance and descend more and more into a symbolic and meaningless institution; what was the pride of TWC, is now safely what can be defined as her greatest shame. Why does the Hex allow the Curia to interfere in her affairs? Tradition, and nothing more. And as new generations come, tradition will get more and more meaningless to the point that the Curia will be abolished, and nobody will ever miss these halls.

I call for a Curial reform, urgently. From the restoration of both the meaning and status of the old ranks to a massive refocus of the Curia into what really matters, that is, running the site. I'm not against the use of force by the central authorities, and I'm not against one or two arbitrary decisions that fix the Curia and stop the present decadence. While the past days might never return, we need a Gaius Marius to keep things running right. I trust that our benevolent leader imb39 will understand the need for change and will do whatever is possible, even if it that only means delaying, and not avoiding, the descent of an once admirable institution into eternal obscurity.

Why is the sudden change?

[Marie Louise von Preussen]

My God, PW, you resurrected some oldie shinnies there !

Quite plainly and simply speaking, the fact that I found the Curia to be useless does not go along with the opinion that peregrini should have access to it. They already have the Q&S for it, making the Curia completely redundant for them. For all practical reasons, despite the nominal power the Curia has both are in practice advisory bodies to the site administration.

What is good though about the Curia is precisely because it has stricter requirements, thus making polls and debate here of higher face value. The whole idea of the Citizen ranking, as originally conceived years ago, was of some distinct elite that would not try to spam the in-site debate with senseless conspiracy theories or plain ignorance. The Curia might be useless in all but name as a governing body, but at least it is still a safer and guaranteed place, although in my opinion it does not warrant its existence based on that alone. No matter, my opinion is not popular enough to take it out, so it stays and I would prefer it stays restricted as it is.

[Captain Blackadder]

Oppose for now. A better soultion for now would be reserect that curia commentary thread see how that goes and if lots of none citizens post in it then I will support the bill. But currently I oppose.

[Nakharar]

Oppose for reasons stated in squids post

[Father Jack]

This looks very interesting and I would certainlylike to see how it would work for 3 months - we can always remove it if it turns out to suck. I support.

But I would also recommend taking Viking Prince's advice.