War of Attrition?

[Soryn Arkayn]

I've discovered that the player can't use an effective "war of attrition" strategy against the AI factions.

In my current campaign, it's the 1740s and I'm at war with Spain. After emassing my armies from conquering half of Western Europe and most of the Americas and Caribbean, I decided it was time to destroy my arch-rival: the Spanish. So I staged armies and fleets all over the world for a co-ordinated global assault. The war began and I succeeded in conquering all of Spain's colonies and provinces (except Spain, Gibraltar, and Portugal) in a few turns, sank all of their fleets, and blockaded and/or raided all of their ports.

Part of the reason I did this was that I had planned to use a "war of attrition" strategy against Spain to deplete their strength, since they had at least 6 full-stacks on the Spanish mainland, and I knew I couldn't match their numbers in an invasion (not while my armies were capturing the rest of Spain's territories). I had hoped that if Spain was suddenly deprived of most of its income, it couldn't afford the upkeep of its large army, and the armies would be forced to disband.

Unfortunately, this hasn't happened, which is why I suspect that the AI is "immune" to bankrupcy.

I can't believe that Spain is able to pay the upkeep for their massive army, because the upkeep for just my army is 100K+, and I have ~10 offensive army stacks. Of the 100K upkeep, I suspect that as much as half is for garrison units, since I have 70+ regions and the average garrison consists of a Dragoon and 3 Militia units. So I estimate that Spain's army upkeep is 20-40K per turn, which Spain can't possibly afford with only three provinces and no sea trade income.

I was wondering, has any player gone bankrupt in any of their campaigns. What happens if your costs are greater than your income each turn? Will military units automatically disband to prevent the treasury from falling into the red?

If so, why is the AI immune to bankrupcy and wars of attrition?

It's terribly disappointing that the AI can cheat like this and not

[Azkatari]

but what happens when you / the AI becomes bankrupt? does the game automatically destroy a few units at random until you get back in the green? Maybe he is helplessly bankrupt and won't be able to replace his units when you destroy them, but that's the limit of the attrition possible in etw?

[l33tl4m3r]

Soryn Arkayn and Azkatari - While his stacks might remain at 10 units, have you looked at those units with a rake? The reason I ask is because his units may be losing men but not entire units, yet.

I will test it out and see; when you as a player are bankrupt your armies do not disband entire units immediately, your units begin to deplete in numbers first until they reach a bottom threshhold (I do not recall what it is by default) and then the unit disbands.

Let me know what you find out!

[Gezoes]

I starved Austria as Prussia and noticed although they seem to be still full stacks...

Almost every unit was half strength or less (as I myself experienced once when the treasury failed).

[Fishy]

They do definitely go bankrupt, I've once taken all provinces of Sweden except for Norway which they conquered from Danmark earlier. They had three armies there by the time I invaded about 8 years later they had just half an army left. I did it again against England who pretty much lost all their land units in their home province except for one army.

So yes the AI does go bankrupt but it can take some time, I didn't pay close attention to England but I noticed that Sweden lost troops very slowly and it took a few turns before the first army dissapeared.

[Mr Tom]

I noticed Hungary which emerged was locked in a war with Wurtemburg and it lost lots of men before it even went into battle, it wasn't until it made some trade agreements that it stopped being bankrupt.

[OldCrowWhiskey]

I've discovered that the player can't use an effective "war of attrition" strategy against the AI factions.

In my current campaign, it's the 1740s and I'm at war with Spain. After emassing my armies from conquering half of Western Europe and most of the Americas and Caribbean, I decided it was time to destroy my arch-rival: the Spanish. So I staged armies and fleets all over the world for a co-ordinated global assault. The war began and I succeeded in conquering all of Spain's colonies and provinces (except Spain, Gibraltar, and Portugal) in a few turns, sank all of their fleets, and blockaded and/or raided all of their ports.

Part of the reason I did this was that I had planned to use a "war of attrition" strategy against Spain to deplete their strength, since they had at least 6 full-stacks on the Spanish mainland, and I knew I couldn't match their numbers in an invasion (not while my armies were capturing the rest of Spain's territories). I had hoped that if Spain was suddenly deprived of most of its income, it couldn't afford the upkeep of its large army, and the armies would be forced to disband.

Unfortunately, this hasn't happened, which is why I suspect that the AI is "immune" to bankrupcy.

Dude I did the same exact thing. I squeezed Spain and completely destroyed their economy - no foreign trade, I was destroying economic buildings/towns, raiding towns, blocked all ports, conquered all colonies. They were grossing approx $2500 per turn and supporting three full stacks. I didn't want to bother with taking Spanish home territory. I was hoping to make them bankrupt which I was hoping would trigger a revolution (how awesome would that be?)... but no such luck. I let it go on this way for about 10 turns before I got bored and just invaded like I should have done in the firs place.

I suspect that you're right, AI seems immune to the perils of bankruptcy.

With the campaign map so well geared toward wars of attrition, actually implementing such a strategy seems more costly than a good old fashioned head first charge!

[Langer Kerl]

but what happens when you / the AI becomes bankrupt? does the game automatically destroy a few units at random until you get back in the green? Maybe he is helplessly bankrupt and won't be able to replace his units when you destroy them, but that's the limit of the attrition possible in etw?

I once became bankrupt while I was trying to spark a revolution. Besides not being able to buy/build anything new, every turn 1/4 of my land armies deserted. Not whole units, 1/4 of every unit's men. Good thing the revolution happened after three turns and I was able to bring all those 30 men units back to full power, now that I could charge taxes again.

My fleet, however, stayed at full manpower. Guess that's why sailors weren't taught to swim.

[Pontifex Maximus]

Moved to strategy discussions.

[fluffstalker]

Soryn, the AI does cheat, espeically on higher difficulty levels. Even if their wealth is meagre, they will always be able to spam stacks like crazy. There is absolutely no point in attempting to do fancy strategies like blockading ports, raiding towns and taking colonies, which makes for a real boring campaign experience.

Really the only way to put them down is to march into Spain with more stacks than they have, and then proceed to fight it out. Only then will you put them out of commission. Capital first, then colonies (Im using a mod that allows nations to survive past capital destruction), not the other way around. Ridiculous but true.If your playing a version whereby the home european region triggers the destruction of everything, then its even more bland. Take the capital, watch everything fall apart, done.

[Chasym]

Large provinces like England, Spain and France can supply a lot of money, depending on how built up they are. France in my Great Britain grand campaign by the end was producing something like 10k ducats a turn for me.

[Deathofjams]

Yeah, on higher difficulties the AI does cheat and gets extra money, which is why I prefer to play on normal. However, they're not immune to bankruptcy. On normal difficulty I was able to force revolutions in Russia and Sweden by reducing them to one province and shutting off their trade. After a few turns they went bankrupt, their armies started to dissolve, and their happiness levels dropped dramatically.

However there is a major problem in that damaging and occupying enemy industrial buildings doesn't actually reduce their income, which is clearly a bug. If it did it would be a very useful tactic against one-province nations (Bavaria, for example, gets about half of its income from a single mine)

Incidentally, I was also able to force a Mughal rebellion by driving up their war weariness, though it got put down.

[Nastyvale]

Or if your religion is different than your target, you could send 3-4 priests and a few rakes to sabotage churches and happines structures. I wonder if the AI is also 'immune' to religion/happiness effects...

[Fishy]

Or if your religion is different than your target, you could send 3-4 priests and a few rakes to sabotage churches and happines structures. I wonder if the AI is also 'immune' to religion/happiness effects...

No there not... I've tried this once against France, send over half a dozen protestant missionary's and they slowly converted I also noticed the city become more and more pissed, eventually even revolts happened. Surprisingly enough when I conquered the province they still weren't too happy with me.

Of course it could just be a coincidence that the French started hating their own government but it did appear related.

[Frederf]

The French just hate everyone.