Russia ends counter terrorism operation in Chechnya

[Applesmack]

http://www.russiatoday.ru/Top_News/2..._Chechnya.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009...anti-terrorism

There is going to be a withdrawl soon.

[justicar5]

http://www.russiatoday.ru/Top_News/2..._Chechnya.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009...anti-terrorism

There is going to be a withdrawl soon.

so can the elected chechen goverment return to power then?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chechen...ic_of_Ichkeria

[Applesmack]

so can the elected chechen goverment return to power then?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chechen...ic_of_Ichkeria

No I'm afraid not. Nobody wants that government in power except the terrorist that leaves it. It's like returning the Taliban or Al-Qaeda to power in Iraq or Afghanistan.

[Burnum]

No I'm afraid not. Nobody wants that government in power except the terrorist that leaves it. It's like returning the Taliban or Al-Qaeda to power in Iraq or Afghanistan.

Nice Strawman. Chechnya had a Referendum on Independence, unlike say Al-qaeda or Taliban, the Chechens were following the democratic will of the Chechen people.

It's funny, when it's Georgia or Moldova trying too protect it's Sovereignty they're clearly in the Wrong. But when Russia does the same thing, they're fighting terrorists.

[ivan_the_terrible]

Nice Strawman. Chechnya had a Referendum on Independence, unlike say Al-qaeda or Taliban, the Chechens were following the democratic will of the Chechen people.

It's funny, when it's Georgia or Moldova trying too protect it's Sovereignty they're clearly in the Wrong. But when Russia does the same thing, they're fighting terrorists.

Wait, you mean powerful contries act hypocritically?! :O

[Applesmack]

Nice Strawman. Chechnya had a Referendum on Independence, unlike say Al-qaeda or Taliban, the Chechens were following the democratic will of the Chechen people.

It's funny, when it's Georgia or Moldova trying too protect it's Sovereignty they're clearly in the Wrong. But when Russia does the same thing, they're fighting terrorists.

Of course, that "referendum" was full of ethnic violence, discrimination, kidnapping, etc. Eventually, it led to terrorism and Russia and bombings inside Russia along with school hostage situations. Perhaps during the 1st war the Russians shouldn't have reacted like they did, but they componsated the Chechens for their actions so all was well. Furthermore, it is strongly suggested that if they didn't react and show strength instead of continuing weakness, everyone around them would want to sepeare too and the region would have collapsed into lawlessness and Islamic militancy. However, during the 2nd war, the Chechens got exactly what they deserved.

Now that the fanatics have been delt with, it has been agreed by the Russians and Chechens, as this article shows, that:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/apr/16/russia-chechnya-anti-terrorism

Chechnya now enjoys the kind of autonomy that its separatist leaders in the 1990s had failed to achieve, while remaining a part of the Russian Federation.

Russian forces are also withdrawing form the region now that the conflict is settled.

[justicar5]

Of course, that "referendum" was full of ethnic violence, discrimination, kidnapping, etc. Eventually, it led to terrorism and Russia and bombings inside Russia along with school hostage situations. Perhaps during the 1st war the Russians shouldn't have reacted like they did, but they componsated the Chechens for their actions so all was well. Furthermore, it is strongly suggested that if they didn't react and show strength instead of continuing weakness, everyone around them would want to sepeare too and the region would have collapsed into lawlessness and Islamic militancy. However, during the 2nd war, the Chechens got exactly what they deserved.

Now that the fanatics have been delt with, it has been agreed by the Russians and Chechens, as this article shows, that:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/apr/16/russia-chechnya-anti-terrorism



Russian forces are also withdrawing form the region now that the conflict is settled.

so the Chechyne elections where free and fair by rusian standards then


Since Vladimir Putin became President of Russia there has been increasing international criticism of the conduct of Russian elections. European institutions who observed the December 2007 legislative elections concluded that these were not fair elections. Goran Lennmarker, president of the Parliamentary Assembly of the Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE), said that the elections "failed to meet many of the commitments and standards that we have. It was not a fair election."[3] Luc Van den Brande, who headed a delegation from the Council of Europe, referred to the "overwhelming influence of the president's office and the president on the campaign" and said there was "abuse of administrative resources" designed to influence the outcome. He also said there were "flaws in the secrecy of the vote." "Effectively, we can't say these were fair elections," he said at a news conference.[4]
In February 2008 The human rights organisation Amnesty International said that the presidential election on 2 March would not be a genuine election: "There is no real opposition ahead of the election. There is no real electoral campaign battle," Friederike Behr, Amnesty's Russia researcher, was quoted as saying. In a report on the elections, Amnesty said laws restricting non-government organizations, police breaking up demonstrations, and harassment from critics were all part of "a systematic destruction of civil liberties in Russia."[5] Another human rights organisation, Freedom House, said that the victory of Putin's party in the 2007 elections "was achieved under patently unfair and non-competitive conditions calling into doubt the result’s legitimacy."[6]
The Russian government has acted to prevent international observers monitoring Russian elections. In 2007 the OSCE was prevented from monitoring the legislative elections held in December.[7] In February 2008 the European Office for Democratic Institutions and Human Rights announced that it would not send observers to monitor the presidential election on March 2, citing what it called "severe restrictions" imposed on its work by the Russian government. “We made every effort in good faith to deploy our mission, even under the conditions imposed by the Russian authorities,” said Christian Strohal, the organization’s director. “The Russian Federation has created limitations that are not conducive to undertaking election observation.” [8] The OSCE has also withdrawn its attempts to monitor the elections.

[Burnum]

[quote=Total Fanatic ;4984415]Of course, that "referendum" was full of ethnic violence, discrimination, kidnapping, etc. Eventually, it led to terrorism and Russia and bombings inside Russia along with school hostage situations.

The referendum was considered fair by all groups but those in Russia or Aligned with the Russian Government.

Perhaps during the 1st war the Russians shouldn't have reacted like they did, but they componsated the Chechens for their actions so all was well.

Compensated How? After the First War Chechnya was treated even worse, hence the eventual Radicalization.

Furthermore, it is strongly suggested that if they didn't react and show strength instead of continuing weakness, everyone around them would want to sepeare too

Considering that the only reason that the Soviet Union even held was through an Invasion and ethnic cleansing, I say perhaps they deserve independence.

and the region would have collapsed into lawlessness and Islamic militancy.

How so? The Miltias were Nationalistic, not Islamic and the Chechens didn't believe in Wahhabism at the time.

However, during the 2nd war, the Chechens got exactly what they deserved.

Because the Chechen Civilians deserved all the Indiscriminate massacres and rape by Russian soldiers.

Justicar, stop speaking bull. Understand what you talk about before talking. Believe it or not, but Karydov has been the best thing in Chechnya for a long time.

However he is protecting the present Prime Minister of Chechnya, Ramzan Kadyrov, whose militia is responsible for some 75 percent of the severe violations of human rights in Chechnya and has not been brought to justice.

Kadyrov has been carrying out "special operations aimed at the removal of people in Chechen power agencies loyal to Alkhanov" under the guise of counter-insurgency operations.

The kadyrovtsy have also extorted Chechen civilians who have received compensation for damage caused to their homes in the war.

Torture by units under the effective command of Chechen Prime Minister Ramzan Kadyrov

Chechen security forces loyal to pro-Moscow Prime Minister Ramzan Kadyrov have begun using cell phones to record videos of themselves torturing and humiliating ordinary Chechens accused of crimes.

Yeah, the best thing for Chechnya in a long time.

Am I the only one who sees a repeat of history?

cough#afghanistan#cough#cough

More like Iraq. The only reason they care about Chechnya is because of the Oil pipelines.

[Zephyrus]

Nice Strawman. Chechnya had a Referendum on Independence, unlike say Al-qaeda or Taliban, the Chechens were following the democratic will of the Chechen people.

It's funny, when it's Georgia or Moldova trying too protect it's Sovereignty they're clearly in the Wrong. But when Russia does the same thing, they're fighting terrorists.

Messing with a superpower tends to reveal the hypocrisy that all such superpowers have in common with one another.

[Heathen Hammer]

so can the elected chechen goverment return to power then?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chechen...ic_of_Ichkeria

I'm afraid its only US which establishes terrorist regimes and calls them "democratic". So no, sorry.

[George W. Bush]

Terrorism must be opposed, or else they'll be allowed to commit acts of terror themselves. I cannot see why the government of Russia decided as such on this matter. Terrorists are a threat, not only for the common man, but for the government and military forces. They're dangerous, and I can't put it anymore plainly they're dangerous.

[Barry Goldwater]

So...have the Russians actually won this conflict (that is, Chechnya has been stabilized and terrorist activity is at an all-time low, with little chance of spiking back up) or is this going to turn into a 1970's Vietnam-like situation where everything appears under control, and shortly after the pullout it all goes to ?

[Bovril]

So...have the Russians actually won this conflict

Using this rubric implies that Chechens are both not Russian and against Russians. Whilst this is the case according to most Chechens, in the interests of maintaining a united front against evil Islamo-fascists, we must ignore the facts and applaude this victory of democracy over those who hate our values of freedom and self determination (which we very laudably deny them).

[hellheaven1987]

So...have the Russians actually won this conflict (that is, Chechnya has been stabilized and terrorist activity is at an all-time low, with little chance of spiking back up) or is this going to turn into a 1970's Vietnam-like situation where everything appears under control, and shortly after the pullout it all goes to ?

Russian probably won the conflict; we need to remember that what caused Russian lost the first war and won the second war was largely due to local support. The First War was interesting because Chechen separatists abled to earn popular support and turned the conflict into a popular movement (note large number of militias participated in First War). On the other hand, the separatists lost Second War because they screwed up during post-war period and lost popular support, who in turned chose Russians as the less of two evils.

For Revolutionary Warfare popular support is critical factor.

[YuriVII]

So...have the Russians actually won this conflict (that is, Chechnya has been stabilized and terrorist activity is at an all-time low, with little chance of spiking back up) or is this going to turn into a 1970's Vietnam-like situation where everything appears under control, and shortly after the pullout it all goes to ?

There is a big difference between Vietnam at the end and Chechnya. Most forces in Chechnya already belong to Ramzan Kadyrov (regional Chechen President) and violence has been very minimal for the past few years. The war is done till the next one starts (and it will). The Caucuses cant go without a war for too long.

[Nikitn]

Terrorism must be opposed, or else they'll be allowed to commit acts of terror themselves. I cannot see why the government of Russia decided as such on this matter. Terrorists are a threat, not only for the common man, but for the government and military forces. They're dangerous, and I can't put it anymore plainly they're dangerous.

The Wahhabists have been driven out for a very long time now. Kadyrov did this job very well.

So...have the Russians actually won this conflict (that is, Chechnya has been stabilized and terrorist activity is at an all-time low, with little chance of spiking back up) or is this going to turn into a 1970's Vietnam-like situation where everything appears under control, and shortly after the pullout it all goes to ?

haha, I doubt it. The terrorism and separatism has been stopped in Chechnya, but not in other republics in the Russian Caucasus.

oops sorry source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_elections

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7124585.stm

http://www.freedomhouse.org/template...70&release=596

http://www.canada.com/topics/news/wo...8ca7a4&k=34165

http://www.spiegel.de/international/...517879,00.html

Justicar, stop speaking bull. Understand what you talk about before talking. Believe it or not, but Karydov has been the best thing in Chechnya for a long time. Not only did he stop the Taliban like Wahhabists which you support (which everyone, including in Chechnya hate with passion), but he also curbed the violence to a relatively good level. This time Chechnya is experiencing a stable, and relatively prosperous time.

[justicar5]

The Wahhabists have been driven out for a very long time now. Kadyrov did this job very well.

haha, I doubt it. The terrorism and separatism has been stopped in Chechnya, but not in other republics in the Russian Caucasus.


Justicar, stop speaking bull. Understand what you talk about before talking. Believe it or not, but Karydov has been the best thing in Chechnya for a long time. Not only did he stop the Taliban like Wahhabists which you support (which everyone, including in Chechnya hate with passion), but he also curbed the violence to a relatively good level. This time Chechnya is experiencing a stable, and relatively prosperous time.

so the nation that wanted to be independant remains in the new russian empire, with a russian appointed leader, supported by russian troops, and thats 'fair'? WEll then GErorgia should keep south ossetia for exactly the same reasons then.

[Heathen Hammer]

so the nation that wanted to be independant remains in the new russian empire, with a russian appointed leader, supported by russian troops, and thats 'fair'? WEll then GErorgia should keep south ossetia for exactly the same reasons then.

It didn't want to be independent. Otherwise, they would not support pro Russian leader.

[justicar5]

It didn't want to be independent. Otherwise, they would not support pro Russian leader.

the choice being support him or we bomb you flat again?

[Nikitn]

There isn't fighting in Chechnya because the people who were fighting in Chechnya are now in Dagestan and other neighbouring provinces.

They fled for a reason. It wasn't the Russian army which drove them out, but Kadyrov's often brutal, but effective policies.

so the nation that wanted to be independant remains in the new russian empire,

First of all, it's called Russian Federation.
Second, no, the nation certainly does NOT want to be independent. The people suffered incredibly under the rule of the separatists.

with a russian appointed leader,

BS. Kadyrov is simply the strongest warlord there. He allied with Russia, pacified Chechnya and that's the end of it.

supported by russian troops, and thats 'fair'?

Actually, he and his militia's do fine on their own. And yes, it's totally fair. Do you even know anything about Chechnya, except from what you red in Wikipedia?

WEll then GErorgia should keep south ossetia for exactly the same reasons then.

Except that The South Ossetian people don't want to be a part of Georgia and South Ossetia never was a part of Georgia for centuries. Learn what you are talking about before talking.

yeah, kudos to you too for supporting a leader who did not negotiate with the hostage takers,

There were allot of negotiation going on.

ordered the school to be assualted

No, a fire fight broke out. No one knows who fired first shot, but everything boiled down to a ill planned assault.

and caused the majority of deaths among childern

Uhhh, no.

and lest we not forget the man who is eradicating democracy in russia

Says a random foreigner who is 100% ignorant of what is going on in Russia?

Although I am no supporter of Russian actions I am afraid the Chechen Rebels have lost this war. Since their main forces were defeated and they started their guerilla war most of their leader have been killed and most fighters have either too been killed or have deserted. The insurgency is much weaker now and im afraid it will not be too long until it completley disappears. Then the Russians can claim victory for the, Second Chechen War 1999-2009? Still the Chechens did manage to hold on to some of their land for 10 years! So kudos to their efforts.

Haha, taking into account how honourable (and violent) the Chechens are, a male Chechen would probably beat you up if you said that to him.

PS. the war ended allot before 2009.

the choice being support him or we bomb you flat again?

No. Kadyrov is actually highly respected in Chechnya, and a far lesser evil then those "leaders" you glorify.