The Pope, the caliphate etc.

[Darkpriest667]

What happened to the pope.. Did he suddenly die in 1699 and I've just forgotten this?

And The caliphate was controlled by the ottomans during the 16th - 18th centuries.. I see this has also been left out...


I am a history major and Im pretty sure that i didnt forget about the papacy being abolished in 1699


anyone got an idea why this stuff was left out of empire?

[S-te-Fan]

Nobody cared about the pope anymore.

[Sir Winston Churchill]

Back on topic, it was because the Pope began to lose influence in Europe. The breaking down of the Catholic church into tiny sub catergories, like the Protestants, just made it worse. So basically like I said, its just because he lost influence, he was no longer a major player in the game.

However, I do not know about the caliphate.

[Darkpriest667]

Ok, you know Theoo? I find your comment offensive.

Back on topic, it was because the Pope began to lose influence in Europe. The breaking down of the Catholic church into tiny sub catergories, like the Protestants, just made it worse. So basically like I said, its just because he lost influence, he was no longer a major player in the game.

However, I do not know about the caliphate.

thanks isaristh... I was hoping someone would give me an intelligent answer...

as for the caliphate.. I often wondered why it was left out of medieval as well.. the caliphate was a very powerful institution in islam until it was abolished after WW1 .. there is a big movement in more extremist circles to re establish the caliphate... its similar to the papacy in one respect... that all of islam usually abides by the caliphate's decision.. sunni and shiia alike.. Just as catholics usually stand behind the pope or did anyway... however the sunni and shiia disagree about how it is established who it is etc...

[♔GrinningManiac♔]

Back on topic, it was because the Pope began to lose influence in Europe. The breaking down of the Catholic church into tiny sub catergories, like the Protestants, just made it worse. So basically like I said, its just because he lost influence, he was no longer a major player in the game.

However, I do not know about the caliphate.

Ah, calling the Protestants a subcategory of the Catholic Church is a great way to spark another war, my friend.

No, the Protestants are a completley different faith, a breakoff rather than a branchoff.

You probably knew this and it was most likley a slip of the tounge, but just to be sure.

[Sir Winston Churchill]

Ah, calling the Protestants a subcategory of the Catholic Church is a great way to spark another war, my friend.

No, the Protestants are a completley different faith, a breakoff rather than a branchoff.

You probably knew this and it was most likley a slip of the tounge, but just to be sure.

No offense meant! I was just saying that during the time, the Catholic church was considered the main church of Christianity in the West. During the 16th and 17th century, sub groups sprung up (Protestants etc.), but yes as you said they eventually grew to the status of a full blown church.

Like I said, I did not mean to offend anyone. I was just stating what caused the Pope to lose influence.

[♔GrinningManiac♔]

No offense meant! I was just saying that during the time, the Catholic church was considered the main church of Christianity in the West. During the 16th and 17th century, sub groups sprung up (Protestants etc.), but yes as you said they eventually grew to the status of a full blown church.

Like I said, I did not mean to offend anyone. I was just stating what caused the Pope to lose influence.

None taken, I was just clearing up the facts

[Epic]

The pope was still around, but didn't have much control over the kingdoms anymore like in the medieval times. Plus this is the age of "Enlightenment", where logic and rationality played a far greater role than religion.

[Darkpriest667]

The pope was still around, but didn't have much control over the kingdoms anymore like in the medieval times. Plus this is the age of "Enlightenment", where logic and rationality played a far greater role than religion.

oh thats why so many wars happened in this age.. because logic and rationality dictate if you disagree with someone you are to kill them... that makes sense..


thanks for the clarification everyone.

[Epic]

oh thats why so many wars happened in this age.. because logic and rationality dictate if you disagree with someone you are to kill them... that makes sense..


thanks for the clarification everyone.

I meant it on the basis of religion, didn't give thought to war and such.

[johncage]

oh thats why so many wars happened in this age.. because logic and rationality dictate if you disagree with someone you are to kill them... that makes sense..


thanks for the clarification everyone.

wars happen regardless of how intellectually advanced humanity is. the us was founded on enlightenment ideals, and how did it gain independence?

your comment didn't refute his point either. the enlightenment did play a part in the papacy's loss of political influence, as did many other factors. don't be so parochial.

[Alba gu Brath]

Yea, the Pope didn't have as much power as he did during the 15th century and under. However, I don't know why CA left him out entirely.

[Sharpe]

Pope couldnt reload a musket, so he was obsolete.

I suppose from a gameplay angle it would have to be the bonus's to the catholic nations that the Papacy would provide, it would probably unbalance the religous aspect a treat.

[Darkpriest667]

Pope couldnt reload a musket, so he was obsolete.

I suppose from a gameplay angle it would have to be the bonus's to the catholic nations that the Papacy would provide, it would probably unbalance the religous aspect a treat.

that is why i mentioned the caliphate

[Sharpe]

I dont really know who they Caliphate are, but that still lives Hindus, Protestants, Orthodox and Native Americans without such things.

[Thanatos]

Thread reopened. Do not go off-topic, do not discuss other members, and do not make insulting comments.

[Rotaugen2009]

Thread reopened. Do not go off-topic, do not discuss other members, and do not make insulting comments.

Well, there goes all MY fun!

Seriously, I wonder if they were left out because they'd have to put various religious leaders in all the areas and it could swiftly become a confusing mess (much like real life). They've not even really finished the product as it is, so they couldn't start adding more detail. There are a lot of interesting parts of life in this time period that could be added, but I don't see them having the time to patch that in when they can't even get 20 Frenchmen in a rowboat to cross the Channel.

[Deathofjams]

The Pope is still in game- he's the leader of the Italian States. He just doesn't do anything special and is treated like a regular monarch.

[DM>IS]

Yup the Italian states are actually called the Papal States in the game files, but - this would look odd if you were being attacked by the Papacy.

[Aradius]

Which represents the Pope's influence quite nicely.

In a similar manner, the Caliphate was linked to the Ottomans. That all Muslims obeyed the Caliph, was already history by the timeframe of Medieval:TW, at least if you look at the political side. It makes sense, therefore, that in the game, people obey the Caliph if they are ruled by the Ottomans.

The TW games first of all simulate war. Then, politics. Everything else is covered only insofar as it is useful for the military and political simulation.

In the Middle Ages, the Pope had enough influence to bring about major political events. Therefore, he is in the game. During the time of Empire:TW, his influence on the political scene was that of a regional Italian power.

The Caliphate already had lost its political influence during the Medieval:TW timeframe - there were even rival Caliphates (the Umayyads in Córdoba, the Fatimids in Tunisia and later Egypt), and the Abbasid Caliph in Baghdad didn't have much political power from the 10th century onwards. In 1517, the Caliphate passed to the Ottomans, who didn't even use it prominently during most of their history. If they'd like to represent the Caliphate in Empire:TW adequately, they should put it in as a honorific title of the Ottoman Sultan.