Grenzers :wub:*** pwn!!!

[Pfundner]

Just tried them out on custom battle on VH, and those double barrelled muskets rly do kick ass. Put them up against a unit of black guard or w.e they are called (most elite english line infantry), put my unit in light infantry mode and just right clicked on the enemy and let it run.

I was completely pwning their ass (4 kills to 40 at one point)

Then they charged and killed me, but thats fair enough as my unit is half their size and has no bayonets. In a real battle i could put them to skirmish mode and cover them with a decent melle unit. im starting an austria campaign right now

does anyone know if they are factual?

incedentally, the black guard were using platoon fire, and it didnt seem all that effective to me. anyone agree? or does it have its uses?

[Slaists]

Just tried them out on custom battle on VH, and those double barrelled muskets rly do kick ass. Put them up against a unit of black guard or w.e they are called (most elite english line infantry), put my unit in light infantry mode and just right clicked on the enemy and let it run.

I was completely pwning their ass (4 kills to 40 at one point)

Then they charged and killed me, but thats fair enough as my unit is half their size and has no bayonets. In a real battle i could put them to skirmish mode and cover them with a decent melle unit. im starting an austria campaign right now

does anyone know if they are factual?

incedentally, the black guard were using platoon fire, and it didnt seem all that effective to me. anyone agree? or does it have its uses?

Just beware they are bugged in the vanilla campaign so that you cannot have them playing Austria unless you mod the unit file. Where it says what region they should be trainable in, the database says "genzers", which is not really a region. It's easy enough to change that entry to state austria instead though.

For instructions how to enable Grenzers check out this thread and follow what blank (poster #4) is suggesting. It worked for me. The correct entry is "austria_home_regions" not plain "austria". It worked for me in my vanilla game.

[tw2obsessive]

A German fellow totally handed it to me the other day.. I went out with a General, three 24 lbers, one elite cavalry, 9 coldstream guards and 3 green jackets.. and he went with a FULL STACK of grenzers. There were no enemy to be seen anywhere. I advanced into the yonder, then got hit on every side.. Then he ran away when I followed his retreats. I was chopped up piece meal.

In retrospect I should have used something similar to Vietnam's interdiction fire.. i.e. firing blindly with cannons into areas they would likely be hiding.

[Pfundner]

Just beware they are bugged in the vanilla campaign so that you cannot have them playing Austria unless you mod the unit file. Where it says what region they should be trainable in, the database says "genzers", which is not really a region. It's easy enough to change that entry to state austria instead though.

i did that, ill just go see if it works.

i notice uhlans (another austrian unit) were also under region "uhlans".... someone got it in for austria?

[Monsieur Alphonse]

Prussia gets them to. And can recruit them without modding.

[blank]

Prussia gets them too

No they don't.

[Pfundner]

Just beware they are bugged in the vanilla campaign so that you cannot have them playing Austria unless you mod the unit file. Where it says what region they should be trainable in, the database says "genzers", which is not really a region. It's easy enough to change that entry to state austria instead though.

hmm well i changed the region from grenzers to austria... launched empires and CTD immediatly after initial loading screen... changed it back and were ok again wtf?

also, im playing Imperial splendour, anyone know if i can recruit them or is it still broken

well, just started grand campaigns as austria and prussia, and grenzers are nowhere to be seen on the building browser.... FFS, my last hope of some fun has vanished, this game is officially bollocks

[Slaists]

well, just started grand campaigns as austria and prussia, and grenzers are nowhere to be seen on the building browser.... FFS, my last hope of some fun has vanished, this game is officially bollocks

Check out this thread and follow what blank (poster #4) is suggesting. It worked for me. The correct entry is "austria_home_regions" not plain "austria". It worked for me in my vanilla game.

However, I am not sure about Imperial Splendor. The modder might have fixed Grenzer availability in that one already.

[fluffstalker]

Yes they are pretty destructive. Therse alerady a thread in Gameplay discussing no how to make a light infantry army with grenzers at their core, sounds really really nasty.

But as a historical aside. Where grenzers were really that effective? Well, of course they werent, but in game they are ridiculously powerful. Is the double musket a machine gun, or what. Surely it woudl be more of a pain to reload, and would actually have a lower firing rate than a single musket. Anyone researched this?

[Cistavrix]

Yes they are pretty destructive. Therse alerady a thread in Gameplay discussing no how to make a light infantry army with grenzers at their core, sounds really really nasty.

But as a historical aside. Where grenzers were really that effective? Well, of course they werent, but in game they are ridiculously powerful. Is the double musket a machine gun, or what. Surely it woudl be more of a pain to reload, and would actually have a lower firing rate than a single musket. Anyone researched this?

That would be my guide!

I have so fallen in love with everything Austrian that I have gleefully looked up Grenzers, Jaegers, etc. Grenzers were levied from Croatia and Transylvania and were responsible for holding off the Ottomans every time they tried to push into Europe. When there was no Turk to fight they were deployed in other fields of battle and proved a very effective and disciplined fighting force. However, they suffered from a "Mamluk Complex" and sort of took on an autonomy that caused trouble with the states that "owned them." I couldn't find anything on the double-barreled musket however, I doubt this would be an outright fabrication by CA but I have a hunch it did not see much use, as the Grenzers I was reading of had single barreled muskets, but still functioned as light infantry. Practically I would assume that the double barrel would be used for the first shot and the rest of the battle would be fought with a single barrel. If this wasn't the case, you could technically reload a doubled barreled musket faster than a musket loaded twice, by using a pronged ramrod, but this is just me using my imagination.

[fluffstalker]

A pronged ramrod? Perhaps with practice, and with care, lest it bend or warp. Also, firing a single barrel would be inaccurate as it is off center, at least if the barrels are arranged like the way portrayed in game. A vertical arrangement of the barrels is a much better idea, but one would have to adjust for the height difference between the top and bottom barrel.

I was simply observing though that in game most skirmishers, except nilla light infantry seem to rape line infantry and even elite infantry, which is rather ahistorical. Skirmishers could slow down, disrupt and hurt enemy formations, but beating them in an all and out firefight, I dont think so.

[Cistavrix]

The double-barreled musket in the game has a vertical barrel orientation, nor horizontal, so it is aimable with one barrel.

I actually think that the entire way skirmishers have ever worked in any TW game are not what they are meant to be. Using skirmishers to "soften up" an enemy is laughable in TW, unless you take out a huge chunk of their men units will not even take a morale hit from light infantry fire before the main battle. Instead, skirmishers are now used to simply flank an engaged enemy or take out defenseless units (like artillery)

Interestingly enough, they seem also to swing radically in the other direction and mow down units to a man (like charging cavalry) I think the fix is to have them actually affect the morale of the army beyond mere casualties. In real life, the effect of sporadic fire targeting officers from hidden or inaccessible positions would have an effect beyond the actual numbers lost, and a mechanic like: "shaken; under sniper fire" would save CA from actually having to make them killing machines.

Also, a morale blow from the loss of officers and the option to target them would definitely make skirmishers more interesting, though it might be a mess in the end with every officer of every unit always getting killed by artillery, line fire or light infantry and units running and routing like flaming chickens.

[fluffstalker]

The double-barreled musket in the game has a vertical barrel orientation, nor horizontal, so it is aimable with one barrel.

I actually think that the entire way skirmishers have ever worked in any TW game are not what they are meant to be. Using skirmishers to "soften up" an enemy is laughable in TW, unless you take out a huge chunk of their men units will not even take a morale hit from light infantry fire before the main battle. Instead, skirmishers are now used to simply flank an engaged enemy or take out defenseless units (like artillery)

Interestingly enough, they seem also to swing radically in the other direction and mow down units to a man (like charging cavalry) I think the fix is to have them actually affect the morale of the army beyond mere casualties. In real life, the effect of sporadic fire targeting officers from hidden or inaccessible positions would have an effect beyond the actual numbers lost, and a mechanic like: "shaken; under sniper fire" would save CA from actually having to make them killing machines.

Also, a morale blow from the loss of officers and the option to target them would definitely make skirmishers more interesting, though it might be a mess in the end with every officer of every unit always getting killed by artillery, line fire or light infantry and units running and routing like flaming chickens.

Bolded! Yes, brilliant idea sir. Skirmisher fire wasnt lethal because of the mass damage it did, thats the expertise of cannon and line men, but riflemen at least should put down some kind of suppresive or assassination fire.

In dawn of war two there is a good mechanic called supression, whereby when under fire from certain weapons a unit would go to ground and suffer sever penalites to movement and attack.

Obviously this was meant for machine guns and the like, but I think that riflemen should be able to snipe or cause extra morale damage with their shots, represeting the impact of having banner men, generals, officers or even drummers slain. I think that milita should be extra vulnerable, seeing as their only there under threat of death and by the force of the officer, whereas killing a guard's officer wont be a big deal as there will be another heroic indivdiual to take up the stripes of commmand.

[the_mango55]

IMO grenzer reload speed is a typo.

Honestly, these guys can reload 2 barrels faster than elite infantry from other factions can reload 1?

The airgun guys are supposed to be the ones with the high ROF, these guys get the double musket, adding super high ROF also is just overkill.

[Sogui]

Grrrr

Why does everyone give instructions for modifying unit files like it's obvious.

It's not.


How do I open the file that will let me change the Grenzer region.

[the_mango55]

Grrrr

Why does everyone give instructions for modifying unit files like it's obvious.

It's not.


How do I open the file that will let me change the Grenzer region.

Here's the program you use

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=234546

The file is in patch.pack

expand the db folder, then open the units_tables folder, and click on units

[Gornard]

in imperial splendor the grenzers are modified so that they take twice as long to reload. But still can get off 2 shots in succession

[Thanatos]

Thread moved to Gameplay and Strategy Discussion.

[caldwell77]

I have positively no expertese on this but if I were leading a unit with a double barreled weapon I'd want to use it as a single barreled musket with the second barrel as reserve firepower when receiving a charge or for some other critical moment. It'd have the same effect as suddenly haveing a whole new regiment pop up from nowhere.

Not really relevant to the game but fun to think about.

[maquisard]

I second that! (in my first post here -hello everyone)

As well as inflicting a morale penalty, perhaps they chould slow the units march/maneuvre speed down too?