Debate on Traditional or Simplified Chinese Characters

[Exarch]

For those unfamiliar with the chinese language, simplified chinese was introduced in the 50s by the communists in an effort to make literacy easier for the illiterate; however, this was done rather hastily and in some cases, incorrectly, but the simplified standard characters persist to this day.

Earlier this year, delegates debated on whether or not traditional chinese characters should be reintroduced over a 10 yr period:

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The Chinese Character—no simple matter

In early March 2009, delegates to the National People's Political Consultative Congress in Beijing argued over whether the state should move to reintroduce traditional-style Chinese characters. The Chinese written language was standardised and its orthography simplified during the 1950s and 60s as part of the socialist transformation of China under the Communist Party.
Pan Qinglin 潘慶林 a representative of the congress from Tianjin who is involved with united front work and Chinese expatriates called for a ten-year plan to reintroduce traditional or full Chinese characters. An immediate and vocal opponent was Wang Liqun 王立群 of Henan University who spoke of the virtues of the simplified forms.
简

繁


The first proposal of recent mainland provenance in favour of replacing the simplified forms of Chinese characters was made the previous year by Wang Gan 王干, the editor of Selected Readings in Chinese Literature (Zhonghua wenxue xuankan 中華文學選刊) which is produced by the People's Literature Publishing House. On 2 February 2008, Wang posted a blog essay entitled 'What about abandoning simplified characters over the next half century?' (Wushi nian nai, feichu jianhuazi ruhe 五十年内，废除简化字如何. See http://blog.sina.com.cn/s/blog_47458e6501008kwi.html).
Attempts to either simplify or romanize the Chinese language long predated the rise of the Communist Party and its particular Soviet-inflected modernizing ethos. However, the first formal and legally enforceable list of simplified characters was promulgated on 31 January 1956. It is known as the Hanzi Jianhua Fang'an 汉字简化方案. The aim of that move was far more revolutionary than is now generally recognized, for the preamble to the proposal declared that the simplifications were merely the first step towards the ultimate abolition of Chinese characters and their being replaced with a spelling system that would be in accord with 'accepted international practice'. Thereafter, some hoped, the invented universal language of Esperanto would replace regional languages. Needless to say, this aspect of the policy has remained dormant for over half a century.
The simplifications did not merely reduce the number of strokes in that make up certain characters, but in many cases replaced a variety of characters with a similar orthography but different meanings with one standard written form. This reduction of complexity and nuance has a continuing impact on how non-contemporary Chinese texts are read, and appreciated. Similarly, alternate readings of characters that had developed over the centuries and in different parts of the territory of the modern People's Republic were, and continue to be, restricted. This causes confusion within the Sinophone world, a sphere by no means limited to the People's Republic of China, but one that extends importantly to Taiwan, Hong Kong and numerous international communities. Forced standardization and simplification serves various political and cultural purposes which are often inimical to diversity.
愛

爱


Today, the advocates in favour of returning to the traditional forms of Chinese characters argue, among other things, that the 1956 simplifications were crude and ill-judged, both aesthetically and linguistically. One favourite example is that of the character for 'love', 愛ai, the simplification of which—爱—has expunged the 'heart' 心 from the traditional character and replaced it with 'friend' 友. Critics lambast the simplified form for denoting 'heartless love'. Another reason to reintroduce complex characters, it is argued, is that with the increased use of computers, literacy does not depend on simplifications. Thirdly, it is claimed that the universal use of simplified characters would make it easier for the People's Republic and the Republic of China to be united. In his 2008 article, Wang Gan had also remarked that the traditional form of written Chinese was the soul of the nation's culture and literature, and to have abandoned them had been culturally counterproductive.
Those in favour of the status quo argue that the simplifications are now universally recognized in mainland China and that to replace them with the older forms would be difficult and result in unnecessary and time-wasting confusion. Then there are those who believe that both forms should co-exist. The issue of vertical and horizontal printing does not seem to have been a major issue.
On 12 March, Zhang Xinsheng 章新胜, the vice-minister of education, along with a number of prominent educators took up the cause when speaking to journalists covering the congress. They defended simplified characters and in a legalistic tone of high dudgeon they declared that, since the simplifications were protected under the law, there would be no change. Meanwhile, China's Confucius Institutes, an officially supported network of educational endeavours aimed at inculcating the language and culture of China as interpreted in the People's Republic internationally, will continue to teach the simplified characters. Of course, for those educated solely in simplified characters, and therefore literally 'unlettered', the grand corpus of pre-1960s Chinese literature, history and print culture can prove to be challenging if not unreadable.
Internet opponents to the reintroduction of traditional characters were far more vociferous that official spokespeople like Zhang Xinsheng. They called the fixation on the Chinese writing system to be of little relevant to the pressing problems facing the country today. Others remarked that the traditionalists represented a historical reversal and retrogression. 'While we're at it,' remarked one blogger testily, 'why not go back to wearing scholars' gowns?'. For English language reactions to this debate on the Internet see www.chinasmack.com, at: http://www.chinasmack.com/stories/return-to-complex-characters-proposal-netizen-reactions/
In China Heritage Quarterly we employ a mix of simplified and traditional characters, depending on the subject matter under discussion.[GRB]

Source: http://www.chinaheritagequarterly.or...characters.inc

i, for one, am in favour of the traditional script.
Not only is it much more beautiful when writing calligraphy, each character has subtle and profound meaning when used.
on that note, i'll go so far as to say that if Beijing (aka the CCP) is serious about preserving chinese culture and heritage then formally reintroducing traditional characters is an ideal way of going about it.

think of simplified characters as shorthand or running writing; when i'm in a rush, i'll jot down chinese characters in simplified, but knowing where they came from is important, especially in diplomacy when one has to choose one's language carefully.

Arguments that traditional characters are too hard to learn are moot; Taiwan, Hong kong and macau have proven that traditional characters have no bearing on literacy.

[sephodwyrm]

Taiwan, Hong kong and macau

Both HK and Macau are going into simplified system, and so did Singapore (being the first nation to adopt the script other than Communist China). Taiwan would have done the same if China didn't make the first move (and since we're anti Communist we are against simplified script based on ideology).

I happen to actually know both scripts (since I was from Taiwan). I could take your argument and twist it around. Traditional can be used for calligraphy and stuff, and could be learned as a side. Simplified should be defined as the new standard. If tradition is better, there are older and more traditional scripts out there. I don't see any reason why the Kai-Script (楷書) have to be favored. Why not Seal-Script (篆書) or even Vessel-Script (金文)? That looks more cool and aesthetically pleasing.

Any system that can boost speed and efficiency should and must naturally preferred. I don't really see any loss of traditional culture with the adoption of simplified or even the Romanization of pronunciation.

[Exarch]

Both HK and Macau are going into simplified system, and so did Singapore (being the first nation to adopt the script other than Communist China). Taiwan would have done the same if China didn't make the first move (and since we're anti Communist we are against simplified script based on ideology).

I happen to actually know both scripts (since I was from Taiwan). I could take your argument and twist it around. Traditional can be used for calligraphy and stuff, but supporting it based on aesthetics is just retarded. There are older and more traditional scripts out there. I don't see any reason why the Kai-Script (楷書) have to be favored. Why not Seal-Script? That looks more cool and aesthetically pleasing.

Any system that can boost speed and efficiency should and must naturally preferred. I don't really see any loss of traditional culture with the adoption of simplified or even the Romanization of pronunciation.

chinese isnt like english,
omitting certain radicals from a charcter for eg, takes away the other meanings that character has;
and there are even character which dont even look anything like the traditional charcter; but that's beside the point; ppl in taiwan use simplified freely for speed as u said, much like we also use running writing and shorthand.

traditional scripts were abolished for the wrong reasons-they thought it'd be too hard for the simple peasantry to learn; well the simple peasantry in taiwan, hong kong and macau all learnt traditional.

[sephodwyrm]

omitting certain radicals from a charcter for eg, takes away the other meanings that character has

I don't really care. Out of the 70K characters we have, you're good if you know 3000, and a historian / classical scholar if you know 5000. We don't know the meaning to at least 80% of our formal characters and you're thinking that the loss incurred by simplification is significant?

and there are even character which dont even look anything like the traditional charcter

So?
I understand them just fine.

ppl in taiwan use simplified freely for speed as u said, much like we also use running writing and shorthand

I'm from Taiwan, OK.

they thought it'd be too hard for the simple peasantry to learn

It was hard.

well the simple peasantry in taiwan, hong kong and macau all learnt traditional.

So? It took a lot more resources to educate the simple peasantry there, and the starting base wasn't too difficult.
Singapore took in simplified, and numerous Chinese as a Second Language schools are adopting the simplified script as well. I think China did a lot of crappy things, but Simplified Script isn't one of them.

Just address the counters next time instead of moving on to other points:
- why are more countries and language centers adopting the Simplified Script?
- if Tradition is better, how far back do we have to go? Should we even revoke the Romanization of pronunciation and go back tot he BePeMe system?

[Exarch]

I'm from Taiwan, OK...

so am i,
calm down

It was hard

sure we all hated learning our native tongues at school; heck,it was hard reading pride and prejudice but getting back to it; difficulty is a matter of subjectivity.
i dont really mind the complex forms. i usually prefer them when writing reports

So? It took a lot more resources to educate the simple peasantry there, and the starting base wasn't too difficult.
Singapore took in simplified, and numerous Chinese as a Second Language schools are adopting the simplified script as well. I think China did a lot of crappy things, but Simplified Script isn't one of them

i'm not saying doing away with simplified; everyone uses simplified the way ppl use shorthand to write notes; i just think it's important to officially know traditional script even if one uses simplified on a day to day basis.
taiwan's system has proven that it's not that hard; officially ppl use traditional script when writing formal reports or whatnot; your personal seal is written in song script, business signs tend to use traditional script because it';s much more beautiful.

Just address the counters next time instead of moving on to other points:
- why are more countries and language centers adopting the Simplified Script?

because PRC china uses simplified script; because that's what westerners will be seeing and using when they go to china

- if Tradition is better, how far back do we have to go? Should we even revoke the Romanization of pronunciation and go back tot he BePeMe system?

republican era was just fine IMHO
and what's wrong with bpmf?
chinese kids use it as well so i hear
and bpmf is a shorter shorthand anyhow
yes, using bpmf is better than using pinyin for the reason that it's easier to memorize characters with bpmf than it is with pinyin; when u learn using pinyin you visualize the pinyin rather than the character

[sephodwyrm]

taiwan's system has proven that it's not that hard;

Taiwan also have 50 times less people and a more sophisticated public education system.
Singapore's Chinese dilemma has proven that traditional script will only make it worse. It's a good thing they adopted Simplified.

because PRC china uses simplified script; because that's what westerners will be seeing and using when they go to china

So that should define the norm already. Singapore uses it. Malaysians and Indonesians of Chinese descent are learning it. Westerners also access Chinese faster that way. The traditional script users are just islands in this ocean.

chinese kids use it as well so i hear

I'd rather them use the HYPY system. Which they are, thankfully. It proves that the Communists are not traditionalists.

[Exarch]

Taiwan also have 50 times less people and a more sophisticated public education system..

it wasnt always like that; taiwan was a backwater even after the japanese left; it wouldnt have had all that focus if the KMT hadnt made it their HQ.

So that should define the norm already. Singapore uses it. Malaysians and Indonesians of Chinese descent are learning it. The traditional script users are just islands in this ocean.

10 yrs should be more than enough to transition to official traditional script and besides, mainlanders cant read traditional having learnt only simplified, whereas traditional users can use both.
in any case, using traditional characters would be a major step in cross strait union.

I'd rather them use the HYPY system. Which they are, thankfully. It proves that the Communists are not traditionalists

they'd have to learn english first to use hanyu pinyin
pinyin's easier for foreigners to learn, especially europeans; i do think however that bpmf is universal since everyone gets to know the tones used.

[sephodwyrm]

it wouldnt have had all that focus if the KMT hadnt made it their HQ.

Incidentally KMT also brought with them a great majority of the Chinese academicians and intelligentsia.

mainlanders cant read traditional having learnt only simplified, whereas traditional users can use both.

So we have an advantage, but that does not mean that Traditional should be re-adopted. Sure, people can have a traditional script language augment program, but I don't think it should be made any more official than seal script in 10 years.

they'd have to learn english first to use hanyu pinyin

I'd rather them spend the time to learn English than to learn Traditional, TBH.

i do think however that bpmf is universal since everyone gets to know the tones used.

So is HYPY.

[Exarch]

Incidentally KMT also brought with them a great majority of the Chinese academicians and intelligentsia.


So we have an advantage, but that does not mean that Traditional should be re-adopted. Sure, people can have a traditional script language augment program, but I don't think it should be made any more official than seal script in 10 years.

i suppose we will agree to disagree then

I'd rather them spend the time to learn English than to learn Traditional, TBH.

learning english for them would be like a westerner learning chinese or german; they're not going to see any use in it unless they're going to be doing international business; with more and more ppl taking chinese classes or expats studying in china, it's as important to learn chinese as it is to learn english.
chinese kids learning traditional would set the bar even higher for learning; i know you're not going to like that, you who suffered through such a system

So is HYPY

only if the students using it are familiar with the alphabet; what if they're from a country that doesnt use the english alphabet?
bpmf is universally universal.

[sephodwyrm]

i suppose we will agree to disagree then

No. I'm only regurgitating the arguments I have heard from the pro-Simplified camp.

learning english for them would be like a westerner learning chinese or german; they're not going to see any use in it unless they're going to be doing international business

That's not true. English is the standard language for science, and learning English would help academicians as well. And a useful second language is going to help make the populace more competitive, not just in international business. I am not going to disregard the dominant position of the English language just so that people can learn a more archaic form of their own script.

only if the students using it are familiar with the alphabet; what if they're from a country that doesnt use the english alphabet?

You mean countries such as Georgia, Greece, Russia, Japan, Korea etc?
Most countries have an English Second Language program for their kids.
Fact is these:
- English is dominant
- Simplified script is dominant
- HYPY will become the international standard

[Exarch]

No. I'm only regurgitating the arguments I have heard from the pro-Simplified camp.


That's not true. English is the standard language for science, and learning English would help academicians as well. And a useful second language is going to help make the populace more competitive, not just in international business. I am not going to disregard the dominant position of the English language just so that people can learn a more archaic form of their own script.

noone's saying we shouldnt learn english;
we may as well learn german as well then considering the advances in science the germans have made.

the whole point of language is to make communication easier, to avoid 'misunderstandings' and the fact is, few chinese who arent in the business/finance/science sector are much interested in learning english.

You mean countries such as Georgia, Greece, Russia, Japan, Korea etc?
Most countries have an English Second Language program for their kids.
Fact is these:
- English is dominant
- Simplified script is dominant
- HYPY will become the international standard

actually both systems are used internationally, bpmf and hanyu pinyin; i dont see HYPY taking over from bpmf, especially since the Chinese Admin (with their rhetoric on their century of humiliation) would be loathe to have the whole country learn english.

doctors use english terms for diagnosis and such, use the english terms for muscles and medicines, but that doesnt necesasrily mean that they learn the english language.
similarly, ppl learning traditional chinese medicine learn the chinese names for herbs, meridians etc, but dont necessarily leanr the chinese language.
this is coming from firsthand experience.
the doctor who stitched up my leg last yr typed his notes in english, yet didnt speak the language.
similarly, a few of my australian colleagues can name and list chinese herbs and formulas (in HYPY) but wont know how to speak chinese.

[sephodwyrm]

we may as well learn german as well then considering the advances in science the germans have made.

I'm not going to base this argument on any historical notion. English is the Scientific Language of the 21st century.

actually both systems are used internationally, bpmf and hanyu pinyin

Facepalm.

especially since the Chinese Admin (with their rhetoric on their century of humiliation) would be loathe to have the whole country learn english.

Er hem...
The whole country is ALREADY learning English.

[Exarch]

Er hem...
The whole country is ALREADY learning English .

i wish you'd told me b4 i went to China, it would've saved me a load of time and money hiring a chinese tutor and whatnot, knowing the whole country knows some level of english <shakes head> dammit, i knew those chinese ppl already knew english but just werent using it for confound me! <facepalm>

[sephodwyrm]

hiring a chinese tutor and whatnot, knowing the whole country knows some level of english <shakes head> dammit

Ah, so you're a Chinese who doesn't know Chinese and yet demands...Traditional script?

Learning a language isn't the same as knowing a language. It just gives them some basal skills, not to converse with someone overseas as though they've been learning and speaking English all their lives.

[Exarch]

Ah, so you're a Chinese who doesn't know Chinese and yet demands...Traditional script?.

this was years ago

Learning a language isn't the same as knowing a language. It just gives them some basal skills, not to converse with someone overseas as though they've been learning and speaking English all their lives

i use chinese on a daily basis; hell, i treat patients in chinese and english;
what i said b4 in a hospital comes from firsthand knowledge.
WM doctors use western medical terms such as 'haemotoma' 'myoma' etc and will know the meanings of them but wont necessarily know the english language.

[Mithie]

Eh... China adopted simplified to save bureaucrats from developing carpal tunnel syndrome.

But now that everyone types on the computer, and the electronic conversion between simplified and traditional is so easy, I doubt many people care.

Most Chinese people can read both scripts anyway. It's really a null issue in this day and age and I'm sure either way is acceptable to most people.

[sephodwyrm]

this was years ago

Same here. Except that I started reading and writing traditional when I was five.

hell, i treat patients in chinese and english

I would expect something more from you, then.
The trend is that traditional script has lost its dominance. Am I sad? No, not really. I grew up writing and reading it, but languages are just tools. If you want to get into the cultural aspects of the language, a lot of the terminologies we use in modern colloquial terms mean different 100 years ago. I don't see you throwing a fit about that.

China adopted simplified to save bureaucrats from developing carpal tunnel syndrome.

Enlighten me. What is that?

[Exarch]

Same here. Except that I started reading and writing traditional when I five.

my reading and writing are fine, the tutor was more to study mandarin since my taiwanese was better than mandarin.

I would expect something more from you, then.
The trend is that traditional script has lost its dominance. Am I sad? No, not really. I grew up writing and reading it, but languages are just tools. If you want to get into the cultural aspects of the language, a lot of the terminologies we use in modern colloquial terms mean different 100 years ago. I don't see you throwing a fit about that

it would greatly raise the national IQ the way reading shakespeare;'s olde engrrish enables a greater appreciation of the english language. likewise, have u seen calligraphy in simplified? it sucks. it's so much better in tradtional.
anyhow, i could ask you the same question; if it's not really all that important where's the harm in simply formally reintroducing traditional script; you can still use simplified, students will learn both traditioanl and simplified the way english spekaing kids learn running writing.

Eh... China adopted simplified to save bureaucrats from developing carpal tunnel syndrome.

'em
i hate bureacrats.

But now that everyone types on the computer, and the electronic conversion between simplified and traditional is so easy, I doubt many people care.

exactly
reintroducing traditional will not have that big a difference.

Most Chinese people can read both scripts anyway. It's really a null issue in this day and age and I'm sure either way is acceptable to most people.

most uni level chinese might; not every chinese can read traditional yet every taiwanese/hong kong/macaun can read simplified and traditional.
i agree it's really nothing.
so revert to traditional would not be that big a bump in day to day affairs

[sephodwyrm]

so revert to traditional would not be that big a bump

Yeah. As though writing on paper isn't that important anymore.

I'd rather people use that effort to come up with Simplified Mk 2. Traditional is history.
Arguing for an old script based on calligraphy is really not going to convince me. I don't see any real benefit of instructing Traditional Chinese any more since Simplified have sufficiently replaced the old script and proved just as useful.

[Mithie]

Enlighten me. What is that?

Your wrist starts chronically aching after using it too much.