The mighty pro-JSF lobby.

[Treize]

Since I've started to interess myself in military tech and especcialy fighter aircraft I started to question the fairness of the wordwide fighter competitons.
You see the Americans really want to sell there F-35 to the western nations that are currently replacing there 4th generation aircraft, and alot of companies worldwide manufacture parts for this plane and together with Lockheed Martin are actively lobbying to sell there new plane to these nations.
And I seriousely question there ways, for example the Australian market:
Link

And in my own country (a tender for 85 aircraft+training and maintanance) there are dubiouse things going on too.
To start with there is the weekly message the JSF is better than the SAAB Gripen NG on the public channels, there is the ever increase of costs to 6.1 billion (SAAB = 5 billion) that does not seem to worry the goverment.
There is the commander of the military telling us we NEED the JSF (=F-35).
And he tells things that are simpely not true or incomplete and biased.

There argument is that the JFS has 'stealth'.
The WANT the lay people to believe that 'stealth' makes a plane invisible but that's not true it makes the plane harder to detect but with the most modern radar's of today that is not such a huge advantage.
And the most important thing is that the EXPORT version of the JSF has alot less stealth that the American version, has a weaker radar and zero Transfer of Technology.
Rumours say that the plane is programmed in a way it cannot attack US target's if you ever wanted to.

The SAAB Gripen (NG) can carry most modern american weapons systems, and most modern and future (Meteor!) European weapon systems (including Swedish built weapons exclusive to the Gripen).
It is more agile and better in Air to Air combat and it is very cheap to maintain.
2000$ per hour, an F-16 costs 3600$ per hour and an F-35 even more.
And because it is so light is uses alot less fuel. (and it can land and take of from a highway!)

I highly suspect the JSF lobby of spreading lies and half-lies about how great the JSF is.

Your opinions please!

[Farnan]

I think the Dutch get the non-export version of the F-35, since they are a contributor.

But you forgot a huge advantage of the F-35. As the Dutch are unlikely to go to war without either the US or one of the other contributors they can share parts in a war time situations making them easier to keep flying.

The JAS is faster but can't fly as high, doesn't have stealth, can't fly as long and can't carry as much armament.

[IrishHitman]

Ehem, what about the Eurofighter or the Rafale?

JSF and the Saab aren't the only competitors...

[Treize]

Ehem, what about the Eurofighter or the Rafale?

JSF and the Saab aren't the only competitors...

For the future Dutch fighter?

-Lockheed Martin F-35A (Unfortunatly the numberone candidate...)
-SAAB Aerospace (?) Gripen NG (not likely but maybe, just maybe because of the crisis and the low price, I hope)
-Lockheed Martin F-16 Block 60 (very very unlikely)

@Farnan.
Question is though if the Netherlands (and Denmark) really need such. The Gripen can accomplish all the task the Royal Danish Airforce demands and will all things equal be a lot cheaper to buy. The thing is though that Denmark, likely due to political reasons, have pured considerable amount of cash into the JSF program, and therefore it would be downright "dumb" not to purchase it. At least that is what some would claim. In any case I do not trust that we will get all the juicy stuff with the F-35... Not that it really matters, it's just a waste of money.

We would still get royalties for sold aircarft!

[Thorn777]

Just some questions to make me understand this better.

Why do you want to increase the budget?

Why do you want another base in the Antilles(>Venezuela? Cuba? USA?).

[Treize]

First of all i'd like to state that if the US limits those fighters like you say, no programming would stop the EU from frying the US anyway.
Secondly if the Gripen can fullfill the duties we demand i see no problem with buying that instead of the JSF.
To Thorn: if a country increases the size of it's armed forces it gets more respect. so yeah its about the "Mine's Bigger than yours" thing.

It is programmed in a way you cannot change it I suppose.
Or it breaks down or something.

Just some questions to make me understand this better.

Why do you want to increase the budget?

Why do you want another base in the Antilles(>Venezuela? Cuba? USA?).

First of all the Gripen is cheaper, we could use that money to replace the sold Orions for example...
You see because of the shorter range of the Gripen it is good to have them in multiple parts of the world and I do not trust Chavez...
(must protect NEC sponsor).
I can present my plans (in a spoiler) if you want...

Besides, while the western countries are cutting there budgets and transform there military to a peacekeeping force the new ecomonies are building strong armies.

[IrishHitman]

For the future Dutch fighter?

No, on the international Future Fighter market.

[Treize]

No, on the international Future Fighter market.

2 engined so more expensive in maintainace and fuel
And the unit cost is higher but he F-35 is coming quite close...

[Holger Danske]

@Farnan.
Question is though if the Netherlands (and Denmark) really need such. The Gripen can accomplish all the task the Royal Danish Airforce demands and will all things equal be a lot cheaper to buy. The thing is though that Denmark, likely due to political reasons, have pured considerable amount of cash into the JSF program, and therefore it would be downright "dumb" not to purchase it. At least that is what some would claim. In any case I do not trust that we will get all the juicy stuff with the F-35... Not that it really matters, it's just a waste of money.

[conon394]

The SAAB Gripen (NG) can carry most modern american weapons systems, and most modern and future (Meteor!) European weapon systems (including Swedish built weapons exclusive to the Gripen).
It is more agile and better in Air to Air combat and it is very cheap to maintain.

Maybe I am wrong but that seems like a bit of stretch both plains exist as far as I can in only a limited pre-production existence.

[Holger Danske]

Gripen has entered service long ago. We're talking about Next Generation (NG) Gripen.

[Treize]

Gripen NG is a modernised version of the Gripen (a plane first built in 1990 so quite modern).

It is said the F-35 'can't climb, turn and flee'.
It has to small wings to turn fast thus making it suck in A2A combat.

The Gripen (NG) is much more agile, more capable in A2A and will also have an new AESA radar.
And an Gripen armed with 6 AA missles had 1/3 the radar signature of an F-16 with the same weapons!
(quite stealthy for a non-stealth plane).
It does carry fewer weapons and has a lower range but is this a problem?
We could also buy 25 F-18 SH or the new F-15SE (We as friendly nation will have as much stealth as possible, the same amouth as the export F-35) for long range missions.
Those can carry the B-61 nuke to.

BTW I want the goverment to build an airbase in the Antilles and staion like 2 squadrons there.
ANd we have 2 tankers (I'd say we need another one).

Yes, I want an increase in defence budget.
I've made a list of new equipment and reforms on a different forum, if you want to see it ask me.

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But I'm very afraid Lockheed Martin (and US gov.?) is lobbying in a very wrong way (maybe bribing politicians?).

[JustShoveJayOhBe]

Gripen NG is a modernised version of the Gripen (a plane first built in 1990 so quite modern).

It is said the F-35 'can't climb, turn and flee'.
It has to small wings to turn fast thus making it suck in A2A combat.

The Gripen (NG) is much more agile, more capable in A2A and will also have an new AESA radar.
And an Gripen armed with 6 AA missles had 1/3 the radar signature of an F-16 with the same weapons!
(quite stealthy for a non-stealth plane).
It does carry fewer weapons and has a lower range but is this a problem?
We could also buy 25 F-18 SH or the new F-15SE (We as friendly nation will have as much stealth as possible, the same amouth as the export F-35) for long range missions.
Those can carry the B-61 nuke to.

BTW I want the goverment to build an airbase in the Antilles and staion like 2 squadrons there.
ANd we have 2 tankers (I'd say we need another one).

Yes, I want an increase in defence budget.
I've made a list of new equipment and reforms on a different forum, if you want to see it ask me.

---------------------
But I'm very afraid Lockheed Martin (and US gov.?) is lobbying in a very wrong way (maybe bribing politicians?).

Why would they be pouring millions of dollars into advertising on TV channels like you just said they did if they have/intend to simply bribe commanders and politicians? Stop being so paranoid, the U.S. isn't out to eat your babies.

[|Sith| Max]

Why would they be pouring millions of dollars into advertising on TV channels like you just said they did if they have/intend to simply bribe commanders and politicians? Stop being so paranoid, the U.S. isn't out to eat your babies.

You are not convincing me. i still wouldnt put a baby next to Cheney...

[JustShoveJayOhBe]

You are not convincing me. i still wouldnt put a baby next to Cheney...

Republicans don't want to eat babies, in fact they'll do anything to desperately keep them alive. Now adult males aged 18-45, on the other hand........................

Listen everyone can't we just say "America, YEEAAAHH!!!" and buy some F-35s and save the f'in' day, yeah?

[Sven788]

Listen everyone can't we just say "America, YEEAAAHH!!!" and buy some F-35s and save the f'in' day, yeah?

I don't care what we buy as long as it's the best aircraft not some low budget politician choice.
I think the politicians shouldn't be making the decission but the airforce, they know best what to buy and will ensure they get the best to protect our country.

America, YEEAAAHH!!!" and buy any type and save the f'in' day, yeah!

[|Sith| Max]

First of all i'd like to state that if the US limits those fighters like you say, no programming would stop the EU from frying the US anyway.
Secondly if the Gripen can fullfill the duties we demand i see no problem with buying that instead of the JSF.
To Thorn: if a country increases the size of it's armed forces it gets more respect. so yeah its about the "Mine's Bigger than yours" thing.

[Treize]

I don't know but that's said...

[Holger Danske]

I don't know but that's said...

Sounds more like a plain rumor to me. Besides if it's computer programming (pretty darn likely) then all you'll need is a bunch of Chinese nerds and you'll have your problem solved in 5 seconds.

[Tiwaz]

Sounds more like a plain rumor to me. Besides if it's computer programming (pretty darn likely) then all you'll need is a bunch of Chinese nerds and you'll have your problem solved in 5 seconds.

Unless it is hardcoded into the electronics. In which case you would have to replace that chip with one that does not have that option fused to it but is else completely identical.