Manpower system

[alpaca]

Since we can get information about the size of the existing units on the campaign map, it should be possible to create a manpower system for the game similar to that of Europa Universalis. The basic idea behind such a system is that a nation's military strength will not primarily be defined by their financial capabilities (although they do play an important role) but there will be limits imposed on it that depend on how many able-bodied men the country can draft into war.

The easiest way to implement such a system (and the one used by EU) is to have a country-wide manpower variable that determines how many men you can recruit. Whenever a regiment is refilled (happens automatically there) and whenever a new one is created, your manpower will go down a bit; the primary drain on manpower are usually battles but in EU we also have attrition that kills off a certain percentage of your army each turn that is then automatically replaced if possible. Wars are usually won by the faction that manages their manpower better and/or has more of it - at least for the larger nations. You have a maximum manpower that will usually be reached during peacetime and a per-month manpower increase.

Unfortunately we won't be able to implement attrition at the moment, but we could use a kind of manpower system to better reflect a nation's military capabilities.

So, let's hear your ideas. I will comment on what I think should be possible and what not, and I will also state my own ideas later.

[Flobulon]

Would such a system mean population was actually useful for something other than town growth? I would seriously love something like this, but unfortunately I wouldn't know where to start in regards to actually implementing it. And would the system be regional or nation wide?

[alpaca]

Would such a system mean population was actually useful for something other than town growth?

That depends on the implementation. If one chooses to make manpower dependent on population, yes.

I would seriously love something like this, but unfortunately I wouldn't know where to start in regards to actually implementing it. And would the system be regional or nation wide?

This, too, depends on the implementation. Nation-wide is easier of course but you could use AOR-specific units and give each region a manpower value.

The main problem I have right now is that it'll be hard to tell the player how much manpower he still has-

[harshman_chris]

Attrition is something that we really needs, for the mod I am doing as well, most deaths happened outside of battle, there were alot of soliders who got wounded and died after but alot of disease and desertion as well.

As for manpower, again very important, 1 million men for the south 4 million for the north.

I assume the best way to do this would be to create a global variable called player_manpower, and at the end of every turn have it grow some through an event. Then when ever a unit is built? can we hook into that event, or better yet when then queue and unqueue a unit to be built we can subtract the unit size from the amount or manpower or add if they cancel. Then after this we check to see what there manpower is, if it is to low disable all units. We would also need events for on_replenish, and things like that.

We would be a fairly complex set of events, but it is doable hopefully, I am not sure about displaying the manpower limit though, that might be hard for now.

[alpaca]

I'll have to look into the implementation in more detail but we should be able to hook into different turn start events, one before units are recruited and one afterwards, and use the armed forces info from the CampaignUI to determine how many units have been recruited (total after - total before). For replenishment there's another event iirc, not sure though, you'd have to check.

I could realistically have a simple system up and running within a few hours but I'd like to get some more ideas about the design before writing any code.

[harshman_chris]

Well Manpoiwer would be best nation wide, and I would just used a fixed increase at first, unless you can hook into each populations growth % then average those up, and increase your manpower limit by that amount.

Those are the best ways for that.

What type of ideas are you looking for, I have a million plus for all thingns related to this game that I will never post unless asked for, lol.

[Wolfgang von Zweibrücken]

That depends on the implementation. If one chooses to make manpower dependent on population, yes.



This, too, depends on the implementation. Nation-wide is easier of course but you could use AOR-specific units and give each region a manpower value.

The main problem I have right now is that it'll be hard to tell the player how much manpower he still has-

Didn't RTW subtract the number of soldiers you recruited from the population of the city you recruited them in? How come they stopped doing that..?

[harshman_chris]

AFAIK they do, but you have so many people you never notice.

[alpaca]

They don't. It's a new engine, so there are no left-over features from RTW or M2TW. They didn't stop doing it, they just didn't start it at all this time.

I'll maybe make my saving system more easily implementable by other people when I can append it to the actual savegame files.

[Flobulon]

Would it be possible for how much manpower is left at the end of a turn to have a direct impact on the amount if commodities produced that turn? Actually, scrap that, it kinda opens up a whole new can of worms. Regardless, I would be very interested to see how a system like this effects the campaign gameplay.

[Hohenstaufen]

That would be an superb idea and it's a must for game like this.

I'll give my two comments on the subject.

First of all the manpower value must be connected to the CURRENT population (nation wise) and should follow the increase (or decrease) of population around the country. There should be a percentage of the actual manpower directly connected to the population like: 10% of the population are ABLE to join the army and along with some other factors this percentage could change.

For example, a high militaristic nation like prussia could have a much higher percent like 18 or 20% instead of other, not so much militaristic nations like poland(this is an example). This variation could be done by choosing certain "nation" Decisions like : MILITARY FOCUS = +10% manpower, +1 experience for land units, +10% manpower recovery rate and -20% on Trade efficiency .

This way, battles would MUCH more crucial for the fate of a nation, and it would be much harder and realistic for the player.

I dont know though if AI can handle such concepts.

[HellFell]

I'm afraid AI won't be capable of using this system, so It has to be assisted in some way. (+5k manpower if faction is non-player)

[harshman_chris]

I'm afraid AI won't be capable of using this system, so It has to be assisted in some way. (+5k manpower if faction is non-player)

Why is that? Of course they can be restricted by it.

[King Yngvar]

Would be nice, if it is only for human player. Putting this restriction on AI would be bad imo.

[alpaca]

Alright, I don't really have enough time to discuss my ideas properly but here's a first draft: I'd like to have one maximum manpower pool per theatre (a compromise between having only one for the whole nation which would annoy me by being able to pump the whole manpower from my home region into America or India) that is tied to starting population. Any time a unit is recruited (replenish doesn't work right now in my mod, but if I can I will enable it for units that are in their right theatre) its number of men is subtracted from the current manpower value and a certain low fraction of manpower is replenished each turn.

The manpower pool cap should increase over time, too, but I'll have to look into that to see what's feasible. Factions should have certain traits that can make them more or less militaristic, the native americans for example should get more men out of their home regions than a Euro faction realistically could.

Ideally this would turn out so that you won't be able to continuously wage war on multiple fronts. Also, you shouldn't be able to recruit everything you need in NA (except for the natives of course) but have to ship units in from Europe.

[Hohenstaufen]

Alright, I don't really have enough time to discuss my ideas properly but here's a first draft: I'd like to have one maximum manpower pool per theatre (a compromise between having only one for the whole nation which would annoy me by being able to pump the whole manpower from my home region into America or India) that is tied to starting population. Any time a unit is recruited (replenish doesn't work right now in my mod, but if I can I will enable it for units that are in their right theatre) its number of men is subtracted from the current manpower value and a certain low fraction of manpower is replenished each turn.

The manpower pool cap should increase over time, too, but I'll have to look into that to see what's feasible. Factions should have certain traits that can make them more or less militaristic, the native americans for example should get more men out of their home regions than a Euro faction realistically could.

Ideally this would turn out so that you won't be able to continuously wage war on multiple fronts. Also, you shouldn't be able to recruit everything you need in NA (except for the natives of course) but have to ship units in from Europe.

Excellent!!! I had a thought the other day, we can make feasible those Nation Decisions i mentioned in my earlier post by making them like "thechnology" that can be completed in one turn and have immidiate effect while disable the others.
like: Land Military Focus/Maritime Focus/Trade Focus/Social-Reform-and Prosperity Focus.

Well when you start up the game, you choose what you want to be, next turn ready when in same time the other options have disabled. So it makes the players choose what they want to be, and it will create this diversion in countries like Prussia being very efficient in its land armies-affairs when in the same time it had a non-existant navy, how it really was.

To finish up, maybe after 10 years, the options are open up again in order to choose some other.

The possibilities and the ideas are endless, too bad i dont know how to script. We are all resting upon your hands Alpaca.

With great respect, Hohenstaufen

[Aloicias]

the native americans for example should get more men out of their home regions than a Euro faction realistically could.

The ratio of pop to warriors in this time period ranged from 1/4 to 1/5.

I am very interested in this I had this same idea last night. Imperial Glory though a turd of a game, did the population and recruitment just right. I dont know if you've played it before, but the population slowly increases every turn. It generated at a rate like you generate bushels of resources. Then it is subtracted from every recruited unit. When you take over another territory, you get a splash of population from your new subjects. There were a couple of things that they did pretty well.

Also I wonder if it could be tied to the towns on the campaign map.

[Dud doodoo]

Hohens idea sounds the best, I can't wait to see how this turns out.

EDIT:Why not make government type a factor as well? For example an absolute monarchy would generally by more militaristic than a republic. It should help make government type a much bigger deal.

[S-te-Fan]

Yeah! I want to fight mass peasant armies with professional soldiers .