What should we have done in Afghanistan?

[Eskali]

What should we have done in Afghanistan? I got the idea of another thread( http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...79#post4929579 ).

We should have gone to their religious leaders and have them read out passages of the Koran on TV and radio regularly. We should have them put an emphasis on not killing innocents, not committing suicide, accepting other religions, basically their core beliefs about being peaceful. Coming from their religious leaders i doubt any Muslim would not listen to them.

A decent amount of Intel guys with some SF forces + air support can take apart any force that isn't very well trained, equipped & motivated. proxy forces can be used to hold physical ground.

Instead of conventional soldiers they should also be trained in construction work so we have a huge construction force rebuilding their infrastructure, with elite, well informed soldiers taking apart the enemy leadership.

The elite forces combined with good intel was used in Columbia and worked almost perfectly, but they only brought down one cartel which was replaced (attributed to a lack of political will).

Rebuilding their infrastructure + being nice, the population will be on our side and work with us against the enemy(the population can supply additional intel/deny enemy any intel).(Hearts and Minds has been used extensively by the SAS notably in Omar vs Yemen insurgency)

Why did they not follow this doctrine? This is a low-cost, efficient way of warfare while turning the population/nation/country into an ally and being a role-model for future wars against unconventional forces/organizations.

What are your opinions on this doctrine? do you think it would have won the war, cheaper and easier, with everyone better off?

Post your ideas here.

[Visna]

Errr, isn't the small forces, a truckload of airpower and local allies the approach that was initially used? It went quite well iirc.

The problem these days is to keep the lunatics away, while keeping the local population at worst indifferent at best friendly. Which is a whole other issue.

[Captain Jin]

The problem is that we went to Iraq and focus and resources were shifted from an incomplete albeit successful war.

The initial portion of the war went extremely well. But America has learned the hard way in both Iraq and Afghanistan how to effectively conduct counter insurgency operations, which are tricky beasts to conted with.

In Afghanistan, in my opinion the best route to go would've been to secure major population centers with large amounts of soldiers. Use the US army, and armored units for this. Make the people feel secure, and allow for legitimate government to start anew. Protect the wouldbe Afghan police and ANG, and let proper civil services and governance begin all under our protective blanket. All the while we are working hand in hand teaching the fledgling police and Army. Conducting joint patrols, cordon and knocks, vehicle check points and the like. As an Afghan Army unit becomes proficient in the relative safety of a more secure city center, you punch them out the wild lands of places like Helmand for three or four month rotations on the 'front'.

Now, for the non city centers, utilize Marine infantry units, light armored vehicles and any other form of mechanized infantry that the Army has. The Army and Marines units out there conduct aggressive operations in any small population centers, root out and destroy Taliban. Allow them to take up a footing in no place where any sizeable amount of people live. Take and HOLD Taliban strongholds, do not allow them to dig. High concentration of forces in trouble spots (like in Iraq) effectively smothering them with your presence. Make battlefield circulation nearly impossible.

Also, have aggressive operations with special forces, crossing the Pakistani border if necessary. When the Taliban retires in the winter, pursue them be aggressive and disrupt their attempts at retraining and re-arming. Exhaust them with your constant harrying of their forces, force them from every hole and cave they hide in. Keep them on the run, offer clemency to the less fanatical in hopes that they will put down the weapons and accept the current Afghan government.

Most of all continue to provide aide and protection to the civilians so they feel safe under new governance, and are disenfranchised by the lack of something as minor as a civil court to mediate minor disputes between villagers.

[Eskali]

What if they dispersed their forces in the face of any opposition, they would infiltrate the city's to promote their propaganda, suicide attacks against Police/National Army and full on attacks against outposts. Re-grouping and re-arming in caves. How would you counter this?
They only way to win such a war for the Taliban is to cause as much damage as possible politically, and make the politicans withdraw the forces.

Just trying to promote discussion on how to counter the Taliban cause all we seem to do is criticize and not promote other answers to this problem.

The problem i see is that after the initial victory they are just throwing troops at them which is just providing more targets for random attacks and suicide bombings. My solution is to train the conventional troops to act as a construction units. This will help secure the population against the Taliban and encourage good feelings towards the U.S. Only with the help of the population can we hope to destroy this insurgency.

[Captain Jin]

Major city centers are secured by cordoning the entire city like we did with Fallujah. Entry control points to the city are manned by US soldier and Afghan troops or police. EVERY vehicle entering the city is checked, as is every person. National ID database is created and new IDs are issued. This was painstakingly done in Iraq and was effective. If an attack occurs within the city it is easy to seal up the exits and snatch up who was responsible. Granted, violence will still exist as it did in Fallujah in 05, but on a much smaller scale.

It's not easy to just poke your head into Kandahar, conduct operations, then bounce out to the mountains far to the south. Most of these cells don't operate collectively and instead of quite independant and generally locally based. They don't have the logistical capabilities to march from their caves out to a major city center then return. Instead they rely on US forces being stretched thin and supplying weapons and aide to their groups near city centers by means of hidden supply lines. If you smother them with your presence and are aggressive at locating these supply lines then you can cut off support to those working deep in Afghanistan.

It's all about disruptiong. Hit them in the caves, locate and occupy supply lines (Ie small villages along usable roads), secure major city center, wage an aggressive war on criminal elements, utilize good intel, establish rapport with the locals, protect and train Afghan police and Army, inspire a sense of accomplishment in the people for bettering their community and protecting their own homes.

No amount of propaganda is going to work when the people clearly see the new government and the Americans are more in line with their own interests. Taliban gained a footing again because of a vacuum of governance that happened after we shifted focus to Iraq. In many places there was simply nothing so simple as a basic court to settle disputes. In turn the Taliban moved back into places that were relatively abandoned by the new government and ISAF because of strained resources and manpower. The people basically said well bad governance is better then no governance I suppose.

[Eskali]

Where is the Taliban getting there recruits and funding?

The problem isn't Afghanistan it self but the region where the Taliban can easily find recruits. If we can cut Afghanistan off from Pakistan and Iran, but that would be to difficult, they can just raid across the border.

So long as it has a population to pull recruits off their will be suicide attacks and random attacks on outposts. Promotion of strict adherence to the Koran would stop suicide attacks and attacks against innocents, but what about the suppression of woman's rights and singing, dancing etc.

How can we destroy the Taliban's links to Muslims?

[Vince Noir]

Why are the US so persistent with the eradication of the Taliban?

[Captain Jin]

Why are the US so persistent with the eradication of the Taliban?

It's neccessary to eliminate the most radical of the Taliban. As I said, grant clemency to those that aren't so die hard, as a great deal of them don't really know the depths of what they are a part of. I didn't say destroy them completely, just those that don't want to play nice.

How can we destroy the Taliban's links to Muslims?

That's a much larger issue, and a sweeping one that involves all religious fanatics. Radicals take advantage of the devout, and utilize religion to manipulate them to serve their nasty intent. It's a common problem not just in Afghanistan.

[Eskali]

It's neccessary to eliminate the most radical of the Taliban. As I said, grant clemency to those that aren't so die hard, as a great deal of them don't really know the depths of what they are a part of. I didn't say destroy them completely, just those that don't want to play nice.



That's a much larger issue, and a sweeping one that involves all religious fanatics. Radicals take advantage of the devout, and utilize religion to manipulate them to serve their nasty intent. It's a common problem not just in Afghanistan.

And the entire war on terrorism is built around it, if we can halt it, we can stop the body-bags flowing in all the time, not to mention the savings which can help us deal with the economic crisis, but how?

Edit- What if we can educate them properly so they can't be so easily taken advantage off?
We need to focus on building schools and universities, & increase the government funding to pay for it. Of course it will take years but how long have we been in there?

[Vince Noir]

As much as I am appalled by the law that the Taliban have, and/or would, try to enforce on the populace, was not the original motive to find Osama?

[Captain Jin]

As much as I am appalled by the law that the Taliban have, and/or would, try to enforce on the populace, was not the original motive to find Osama?

And what is your point? The reason why the Taliban was ousted was because they wouldn't have Osama over in the beginning. So, what do you think is the right course of action, let them come back to governing a populace that by far and large wants nothing to do with them and then continue to search for Osama in the same manner we've been doing?

And the entire war on terrorism is built around it, if we can halt it, we can stop the body-bags flowing in all the time, not to mention the savings which can help us deal with the economic crisis.

Yes, and it's not a war that America can fight. Islamic fundamentalists won't go away until Middle Eastern government crack down on radical Imams that prey on religious youths. Places like Saudi Arabia where there is no shortage of radical clerics that are preaching hatred of all things non-Muslim. It's here that the fight must be won, when these boys are young and impressionable. This can't be done by Americans, it has to be done by moderates in the government. Look to countries like Jordan and men like King Abdullah who are quite adamant about combating radical Imams from spreading their hate filled bile and corrupting young Muslims with their loaded bs interpretation of the Koran.

[Vince Noir]

And what is your point? The reason why the Taliban was ousted was because they wouldn't have Osama over in the beginning. So, what do you think is the right course of action, let them come back to governing a populace that by far and large wants nothing to do with them and then continue to search for Osama in the same manner we've been doing?

Personally, I would like to see the Taliban removed. And as Bacevich stated, now that the Taliban has been forced out of power, there is really no need for Western countries to stay in the country and try to make it into a modern democracy. They don't have to create a modern, coherent, Afghan nation-state in order to achieve those limited interests. The great defect of Western policy over the last few years is to assume that we have to create a modern Afghan nation state where none has ever existed and will not exist for some time.

[Eskali]

Personally, I would like to see the Taliban removed. And as Bacevich stated, now that the Taliban has been forced out of power, there is really no need for Western countries to stay in the country and try to make it into a modern democracy. They don't have to create a modern, coherent, Afghan nation-state in order to achieve those limited interests. The great defect of Western policy over the last few years is to assume that we have to create a modern Afghan nation state where none has ever existed and will not exist for some time.

So the politicians are sending more boys(and girls) to their deaths all for their own agenda, why doesn't that surprise me?

Conclusion: The war is firmly in our hands and has been for a while.
Afghanistan is on its way slowly improving.
The only war that there is to fight is against the radical clerics and that is to be done by the local governments.
The politicians for their own agenda are still sending in more troops and acting as if the war is not going well.

Education achievements/goals in Afghanistan.
http://www.reliefweb.int/rw/rwb.nsf/...3?OpenDocument

[Erik]

America should have either left the Taliban in power, or give the Northern Alliance (still the rightful leadership of Afghanistan, according to the UN) the means to beat the Taliban.

The idea that you can turn one of the poorest and least educated countries in the world into a Western style democracy in a matter of months was unrealistic to say the least.\

And what is your point? The reason why the Taliban was ousted was because they wouldn't have Osama over in the beginning. So, what do you think is the right course of action, let them come back to governing a populace that by far and large wants nothing to do with them and then continue to search for Osama in the same manner we've been doing?

You don't have to liberate all of Afghanistan from the Taliban to get to Bin Laden.

[Captain Jin]

You don't have to liberate all of Afghanistan from the Taliban to get to Bin Laden.

What is the answer then? You say that, yet you don't provide an example of what you would do?

[Erik]

What is the answer then? You say that, yet you don't provide an example of what you would do?

I already proposed giving military aid to the Northern Alliance.

Alternatively, they could (temporarily) occupy whatever region they think Bin Laden was hiding in at the moment and just ignore the rest of the country.
Remember that Pakistan was also willing to help out, before America started their whole "OMG DEATH TO THE MUSLIMS!!! ALL MUSLIM COUNTRIES MUST BECOME LIKE US!" rethoric.

[Captain Jin]

I already proposed giving military aid to the Northern Alliance.

Alternatively, they could (temporarily) occupy whatever region they think Bin Laden was hiding in at the moment and just ignore the rest of the country.
Remember that Pakistan was also willing to help out, before America started their whole "OMG DEATH TO THE MUSLIMS!!! ALL MUSLIM COUNTRIES MUST BECOME LIKE US!" rethoric.

Eh? Hmm, seems to me a major portion of the war was fought and won by the Northern Alliance primarily, and of course aided by us.

Also, at what point in the portion of the Taliban saying 'F off US we're not giving you Osama' would make you think they'd be like "Ok we're not going to give him to you but go ahead and occupy whatever province you think he's in and look for him. We have no problem with that". Seriously? That's got to be the most unrealistic option I've ever heard of.

As for your omg death to Muslims bs, that's pretty clear too. Since we line up and shoot regular practicioners of Islam, destroy mosques, subvert religion in every region we have boots on the ground, open Wal-Marts and Macdonald's on every street corner force them to wear our clothes and the like. Oh wait, we don't do any of that.

[Erik]

Eh? Hmm, seems to me a major portion of the war was fought and won by the Northern Alliance primarily, and of course aided by us.

Yes, but instead of letting them form a government, America demanded Western style democracy be imposed.

Also, at what point in the portion of the Taliban saying 'F off US we're not giving you Osama' would make you think they'd be like "Ok we're not going to give him to you but go ahead and occupy whatever province you think he's in and look for him. We have no problem with that". Seriously? That's got to be the most unrealistic option I've ever heard of.

That's why I said they should first occupy (ie: fight off all Taliban forces) whatever region they want to search.

Not that different from what America actually did, but focused on just the South/East (and hopefully including Northern Pakistan), instead of committing 80% of your forces to build a better life for Afghans in the North.

America's problem is that it doesn't know how to focus on the task at hand.

[Eskali]

Got my answer, "Over the past 7 years, school enrollment increased from 900,000 in 2001 to over 6 millions (35% girls) in 2008. " So Afghanistan's education is improving it's just a matter of time. So the administration/bureaucracy is acting properly it just needs more time before the effects take place.

If we eliminate Osama's base then he is powerless and then we just wait till he slips up and then we kill/capture him.

The U.S. needs to ensure Pakistan & Iran are make the most of their education systems and help them along the way.

[Exarch]

afghanistan is a key strategic area in central asia
not invading and occuping taliban led afghanistan especially after 9/11 would be insane for any chickenhawk siting in his safe office at foreign policy initiative PFANAC