Attack of the Clones!

[Vercingetorix_Defeated]

I stopped playing my Greek campaign recently because I got bored of fighting Seleucid Thorakitai for the nth time (after killing about 30 000 of them ), and tried my Rome campaign.

Then I remembered that I had stopped playing my Rome campaign because I had got bored of fighting the endless stream of Carthaginian Libyan Spearmen. They landed 15 000 of them in Sicily, in the early game, and have another 40 000 or so throughout their mainland.

Thorakitai and Libyan Spearmen are pretty much the most boring units in the entire game to fight against, because they are both decent infantry with basically no weakness. Since they are both spearmen, cavalry charges are far too costly. Skirmisher attacks don't do the job because they are well armored and there are simply so many of them. The only real way to beat them is an endless battle with similar infantry, usually around a bridge so that you don't lose half your army in attrition after beating a few stacks.

Does anyone know why Carthage and the Seleucid Empire seem so intent on recruiting these one kind of unit each, to the exclusion of basically all else? Is it just my campaign?

I mean hell, if Hannibal had access to this many heavy infantry that were as good as hastati, he would have never had a problem in the first place. Carthaginians weren't exactly known for their heavy infantry that stood toe to toe with Roman legionaries, and I don't think the Seleucids acted exactly like wannabe Romans with their thorakitai basically playing like weaker legionaries. Kind of takes away from the whole feel of fighting both factions when they fight like that.

[Sextus Molestus]

Well, I'm not sure about the whole historical aspect of it, but I can at least make a suggestion. Attack and blockade them! True, if they're sending stack after stack at your army that you're trying to attack them with, you won't get through for a while, and by then, you'll be too war-weary to take a single city (believe me, been there, done that). But if you train a second army in the meantime (can be smaller), and send it by ship around them to a less defended city of theirs, you can easily take it, throwing off their armies and hurting their economy. Blockading also does help to hurt their economy, which can keep them from recruiting so many soldiers.

I've done this same thing in my Roman campaign. Macedon took the Balkan regions just as I took Gaul. We clashed between Aemona and Patavium. I'm sending a legion through Aemona, and though I've taken it and moved on to Salona, progress is slow and frought with many battles. But with a second army, divided into many little armies, this is possible...



All of those were besieged in the same turn. Now, I must concede, this is on Easy campaign difficulty, so obviously things won't be as easy for you unless you play easy too, but...I think the strategy should work. It's in the Art of War, or kind of, at least. That when the enemy has sent all his strength at you one way, attack his undefended other way, or something.

[krasni]

In my current game Carthage and the Selucids are both getting their butts whooped. I have all of sicily and about half of turkey but have yet to face either of them. Thorakitai aren't really a match for sacred band, athenian hoplites, or hyspaspists though, right?

[Vercingetorix_Defeated]

I don't have a problem dealing with the hordes themselves (bridge battles allow one of my armies to crush an endless number of stacks with minimal casualties), but the problem is that it's boring as hell.

Auto resolve obviously results in super high casualties, so going to the battle map two dozen times to fight an identical army composed of thorakitai or libyan spearmen is just boring.

And like I said earlier, they aren't really good units to represent the factions. The Seleucid Empire's army sent against Rome was based around phalangites , not weak imitation legionaries.

The Carthaginians weren't remembered for outnumbering Rome 5 to 1 in heavy infantry either, right?

Also, it means that since Carthage and the Seleucid Empire are so large, you have to fight at least a few dozen full stack battles of the same stuff to beat them.

I'm not sure how they get such numbers of Libyan Spearmen and Thorakitai so super fast, within a few turns of starting they can have tons. Must be some AI recruitment thing, I'll look into the files.

[krasni]

The only faction that seems to attack me with giant stacks of clone armies (spear warbands in this case) is Thrace. They're barbarians though, so it's not all that inappropriate.

[_Lacedaemonian_]

In my roman campaign the seleucids field well-balanced armies:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Soccer1993]

Yeah, my Seleucid or Carthaginian foes don't spam any libyans or just thorakitai, they look just like in Lacedaemonian's pics and are fun to fight. What version are you using? or maybe your using a campaign from an older version?

[Zarax]

They might recruit more of those units because they get them from the monument everywhere (well, Carthage in africa IIRC).
The main problem here is that they have too much money so can simply afford to send stack after stack regardless of the losses and most of their settlements isn't developed enough to recruit "better" units for the AI.

[synthesis]

Wait until late game then you will see Carthaginian Sacred Band, armored elephants, hypaspists, and argyraspids. Seriously though, thorakitai have a penalty versus sword infantry. They'll hold a battle line but will lose if given enough time.

[gaius_caesar]

I know that defending a bridge is child's play and boring but it does give opportunities to the captains to be the MOTH especially when they just had a major bridge battle victory against the clone armies

[Sextus Molestus]

You must perservere, my friend. They won't stop sending clone armies until you've taken the cities they're sending them from! Field another army, find an alternate route, and crush them. Even if the city is defended by a full stack of clones, and another one comes to reinforce them, you should do fine, you seem to be someone who is good at battles.

Blockade them too! Don't underestimate the power of blockading each enemy port!

[Vercingetorix_Defeated]

Yeah, the problem is I never intended to occupy all of the Seleucid Empire as the Greeks, I just wanted to take most of Asia Minor. For some reason the Seleucids went crazy as soon as I took a city there, and refused to ceasefire until I had taken Antioch and given it to one of my allies to make a buffer state.

In my Greek campaign the Seleucids took over all of Egypt, too, so they're far larger than they are to start even. And all of their cities have 10 000 or so population by now, Antioch had 50 000, so the never ending stream of Thorakitai...well, never ends .

I did fight Carthaginian Sacred Band, elephants and the other stuff, but only like one unit of them per every twenty units of libyan spearmen.

There must be something in the scripts that makes the AI recruit so many of these guys in particular, it can't be just coincidence.

[Sextus Molestus]

Yeah, the problem is I never intended to occupy all of the Seleucid Empire as the Greeks, I just wanted to take most of Asia Minor.

You make a valid point, I forgot the vastness of the Seleucid Empire, even from just its starting position. Hmm...in that case, I would do what you already seem to have done...create a buffer state. Give said buffer state a lot of money to keep said buffer state alive.

[Vercingetorix_Defeated]

You make a valid point, I forgot the vastness of the Seleucid Empire, even from just its starting position. Hmm...in that case, I would do what you already seem to have done...create a buffer state. Give said buffer state a lot of money to keep said buffer state alive.

Even easier than that, because the buffer state is Pontus and they aren't at war with the Seleucids. And the Seleucids refuse to send troops through the regions of any other faction, which is nice, it's almost like the AI is smart enough to respect sovereignty when it wants to.

The problem isn't the stacks so much as it is their composition. Endless stacks of levy pikemen with supporting troops and elites would make for more interesting battles (breaking the phalanx and routing the low quality pikemen), then just the attrition and bridge battle stuff that thorakitai and libyan spearmen need.

[Balikedes]

Have you modded the game yourself?

In my last campaign and previous ones (as GCS) I have never had to fight the Scythians, and usually get fairly well balanced AI armies to fight against. Especially post Marian, I was fighting top tier phalangites, cavalry, mixed peltast units.
I play with bonuses off and only my command sub-mod.

[Vercingetorix_Defeated]

Have you modded the game yourself?

In my last campaign and previous ones (as GCS) I have never had to fight the Scythians, and usually get fairly well balanced AI armies to fight against. Especially post Marian, I was fighting top tier phalangites, cavalry, mixed peltast units.
I play with bonuses off and only my command sub-mod.

I've modded much of the EDU recently, but haven't changed the cost or upkeep of anything, so it shouldn't change what they recruit. This has happened in all three of my XGM campaigns too, the first was 5.8.14 and the last two 5.8.20. I hadn't modded anything in the first one either.

Seleucid armies for me are about 80% Thorakitai, 10% Silver Shield phalangites (there are a LOT of these around), and 10% other.

I had bonuses reduced option from the installer too.

[synthesis]

My current campaign I am playing as Carthage and Pontus has overrun the Ptolemies. I control Cyrene and Pontus is sending entire stacks of bronze shields. Seriously, if you wait long enough, the AI will send stacks of elites. My game ran a bit late because Rome and the Indy Greeks were giving me some serious trouble.

I wonder if Seleucia's problem is that they get their butt kicked early in the game.

[Spartan198]

I wonder if Seleucia's problem is that they get their butt kicked early in the game.

They've always prospered in my campaigns.

[synthesis]

They've always prospered in my campaigns.

Yeah, they used to in mine too. Some semi-recent changes seemed to have, well...changed that.

[Darth Alec]

If you are playing as Rome, you could just throw your Triarii at them. Those guys are literally twice as good as Civic infantry. With the temple of victoria of course, but still.

I'm more afraid of fighting rome. Triarii can't rout, and can barely die. 11 attack and 28 defence makes for a long battle. Roman OP infantry FTL.

The AI probably recruits those guys because of bonus's and value for their cash.