Naval battles and the predominance of heavy classes

[Ecthelion]

I'm a veteran when it comes to fighting on land in games. But naval combat is something that I have little experience with. Since I started my British campaign and got my ass handed to me repeatedly by the AI controlling fewer ships, I have been studying how naval combat works in ETW.

One thing is clear: heavier is better. "Crossing the T" and the figure 8 move do not work well in ETW. The enemy, no matter how heavy is able to turn on a dime. Also, ships with "low" manuverability are not much less so than ships with the "high" rating. I tried this in combat with a steamship versus a heavy first class. No matter how I maneuver my ships, I could not get a "broadside me, no broadside him" on him. I tried this many times with no success. The heavy first class simply turns far too fast.

So the conclusion:

Heavier is always better in combat

Also it seems that neither improved nor regular grapeshot have much of an effect. Also chainshot is hardly effective. Roundshot seems to be the only viable choice. And boarding doesn't seem to work either.

[Frederf]

Vanilla ETW is very much that. The first lesson is don't play above NORMAL difficulty in naval combats, the AI cheats so much that a frigate will sink your 3rd rate.

Modded naval combat (darth, quixote, etc, etc) pretty much all restrict ship movement and slow things down to the point that the lesser vessels really come into their own as at least having some combat value. Morale is also well reduced in these mods so you don't have to obliterate your enemy to have him flee or surrender.

It's true that having a victory due to using grapeshot is nigh impossible with how the game is. I hear raking fire improves both grape and chain shot but chain usually doesn't do diddly (5% of their white bar) at most after many many direct hits raking or not.

[daniu]

It's true that having a victory due to using grapeshot is nigh impossible with how the game is.

That depends on the ship.

Single-deck ships suffer very heavy losses in crew when broadsided with a grapeshot. I capture Dhows by selecting them to be boarded and giving them a grapeshot broadside as soon as your ship has pulled up to the enemy - voila, surrender (I know, a Dhow only has 20 crew...)

For multi-deck ships, the hull needs to be breached quite a lot for grapeshot to be effective though, so going for grapeshot here is probably not a useful strategy; after doing so much damage with the roundshot, you might as well keep going with that.

[Ecthelion]

I can understand that this is the first game in the series with naval battles, but I mean, it takes about 3 minutes of gameplay TESTING to realize that neither chain nor grape do scheisse.

Good job SEGA

[Mechstra]

Chain shot can be very effective fired against enemies with full sails. If their sails are furled it'll do very little, as there's almost nothing for it to hit.

Grapeshot is effective against troops on deck, and if the enemy ship's hull is damaged enough to make the crew below deck vulnerable. You can kill a lot of men with grapeshot in the right circumstances.

That said, I do agree that raking isn't as effective as it should be. And I wish there was more reason to build fifth and sixth rate frigates, perhaps for long-range colony stations and trade lane raiding. After all, their advantage was that they could outrun the heavier ships and easily beat the smaller ones - on the campaign map, this just isn't modelled, though. 50/50 chance that your frigate fleet will be sunk by a heavier fleet when you hit that 'retreat' button, it seems.

Similarly, it would be nice if there really was a reason to build sloops and brigs - for instance, in the Great Lakes, perhaps, which seem like a ready-made self-contained naval theatre but are just irrelevant navally.

[the_mango55]

The problem with grape is that there are too few projectiles, each gun only fires 5 pellets, 10 with improved grape (IG). I don't know if this is for performance reasons or what, but it makes grapeshot ineffective.

You can change this yourself with the pack file manager. I did this myself, varying the number of pellets based on gun weight. They range from unchanged for 6 pounders, to 30 pellets (60 IG) for 32 and 42lb guns.

[MyKingforahorse]

The problem with grape is that there are too few projectiles, each gun only fires 5 pellets, 10 with improved grape (IG). I don't know if this is for performance reasons or what, but it makes grapeshot ineffective.

You can change this yourself with the pack file manager. I did this myself, varying the number of pellets based on gun weight. They range from unchanged for 6 pounders, to 30 pellets (60 IG) for 32 and 42lb guns.

Sorta off topic here, but in the pack file are there changes in the number of projectiles for land based arty as well? Cause I can tell no difference between the 12s and 24s

On topic for the OP

Chain shot works amazing, however as with anything its all about placement and volume of fire. I posted a guide not that long ago on how to use chain effectively.

The short story is

Range should be about 50% of total range in your fire arc
Rake the boat, meaning shots that run the entire length of the ship
Try to utilize the fire at will button so that all your cannons fire at the same time
Chain shot while sails are up does almost nothing, when the sails are full you'll get a much better result
If you have SSOA turned on, the damage is being registered just not rendered.. don't worry.

[fluffstalker]

Yes, against trade ships grapeshot is amazing...

Grape shot should be effective dependent on the number of guns firing and the range, not on the ship being fired at. I understand your point about the hull being breeched, but this isnt a simulation, there needs to be a use for it otherwise it needs to go. In any case, gshot was used to clear decks primarily, usualy before a boarding action. Otherwise in serious naval battles, there is no reason to use anything other than roundshot.

At the OP, I understand totally, there is no point buildling "faster" ships, other than cost. Simply spamming Heavy First Rates will own the seas, no problem, because the AI firing controll system is so lethally accurate and ships can move like cars.

[eatme]

Full sails or no I never found chain shot worth much (even with volumetrics off).

But I did find also, that sometimes rarely, plain round shot, makes a lucky hit and the enemy's mast goes down !

What pains me is that chain shot - much as I tried to test- does not appear to make the demasting quicker or easier.

[MyKingforahorse]

Full sails or no I never found chain shot worth much (even with volumetrics off).

But I did find also, that sometimes rarely, plain round shot, makes a lucky hit and the enemy's mast goes down !

What pains me is that chain shot - much as I tried to test- does not appear to make the demasting quicker or easier.

The last patch changed the hit detection for the shot slightly. To actually demast you have to inflict a certain number of physical hits on the actual masts of each ship. Having the shot go through the rigging and sails isn't enough, the projectile has to make hit detection with the mast itself.

The only thing volumetric and SSOA does it change how the damage is rendered, and oddly enough it actually renders the damage better with those off (go figure)

[jimjimjim]

i spent 15 minutes with 3 ships attacking one enemy ship all with chain shot and the enemy's sail damage indicator did not change.
Loads of hits on the sails and no damage.

Also i have yet to cross the T - they just turn so fast it never works for me.
keep getting my a$$ handed to me on a plate in Naval battles - any suggestions?

I now:
1. dont bother with broadside button (seems to just miss most of the time or do little damage)
2. Dont bother with chain shot
3. Have to micro manage turning my ships in a circle dance with the enemy as i try to cross their T !! But they turn too fast.
4. Cant Ram ships as my ships would rather go round them nicely and get broadsided.
Hellllpppp

[Freodin]

i spent 15 minutes with 3 ships attacking one enemy ship all with chain shot and the enemy's sail damage indicator did not change.
Loads of hits on the sails and no damage.

Also i have yet to cross the T - they just turn so fast it never works for me.
keep getting my a$$ handed to me on a plate in Naval battles - any suggestions?

I now:
1. dont bother with broadside button (seems to just miss most of the time or do little damage)
2. Dont bother with chain shot
3. Have to micro manage turning my ships in a circle dance with the enemy as i try to cross their T !! But they turn too fast.
4. Cant Ram ships as my ships would rather go round them nicely and get broadsided.
Hellllpppp

Broadsides have a damage bonus of... 25% I think. You just have to be close enough to make as many shots as possible count.

[BigB]

One thing is clear: heavier is better. "Crossing the T" and the figure 8 move do not work well in ETW. The enemy, no matter how heavy is able to turn on a dime. Also, ships with "low" manuverability are not much less so than ships with the "high" rating. I tried this in combat with a steamship versus a heavy first class. No matter how I maneuver my ships, I could not get a "broadside me, no broadside him" on him. I tried this many times with no success. The heavy first class simply turns far too fast.

Yes I agree. They dumbed down naval combat too much. Acceleration, turn speed, deceleration, and wind effect have been dumbed down too much and made the ship combat rather "arcadey". You dont need to use traditional naval tactics to win. It is actually more effective to use non-traditional tactics.

In a different thread we had a long discussion about this. Many people found that just running downwind of the enemy and making them chase you was the most effective way to win. Many people thought this was using the "weather gage" and thought it was realistic. They didnt know that the "weather gage" is staying upwind of the enemy. In this game there isnt much advantage to staying upwind because of the unrealistic acceleration and upwind sailing characteristics of ships.

I have started just taking 3-4 2nd and 3rd rates and sailing right through the middle of enemy fleets so my ships can fire from both sides at close range using normal round shot. Its a fast way to get wins and end battles. Even against large fleets.

[Slaists]

In a different thread we had a long discussion about this. Many people found that just running downwind of the enemy and making them chase you was the most effective way to win. Many people thought this was using the "weather gage" and thought it was realistic. They didnt know that the "weather gage" is staying upwind of the enemy. In this game there isnt much advantage to staying upwind because of the unrealistic acceleration and upwind sailing characteristics of ships.

It depends what you are facing. True, the faster ships have ability to cruise against the wind. However, the heavier ones (first, second, third rate), come to almost complete halt if facing the wind.

[pandoursbox]

I've been playing with Darth Mod for about a week now and there is a significant improvement in combat. Ships are slower and turn slower. They also tend to surrender. I captured more ships last night than I did in 5 aborted campaigns in Vanilla

[August]

Yep. Heavy trumps light.
Though... Heavy is vulnerable to morale, as I have discovered.
I had a pirate galleon wavering when he decided to plunge through my Indiaman(yes, Indiaman) formation. They had no chance of sinking a galleon in an actual physical fight, but they ruined it's morale.

[Gornard]

The exception to the rule i suppose is with carronade frigates, if you micromanage them into close range you can take down much larger ships and it is possible to maneuvre to minimize the effect of a broad side, if not out of it completly.

[Darthey]

One little detail they left out is how stern-shots are supposed to 'unsettle' a ships guns by flying the length of the gun-deck. As far as I can tell damage is only done to a ships guns from direct hits in a broadside.

[chris watton]

Heavier/larger ships (Ships of the Line) could sink, or at the very least, shatter a smaller ship, frigates included, with a single broadside. (Which is why ships from Third to First Rate were considered for the line of battle)

Also, because of the heavier guns the larger ships could carry, they could severely damage lesser ships before getting anywhere near their own firing range, and when you are in range with your lesser vessel, chances are that your main guns are as useful as pea shooters against the very heavily built hulls of the larger ships (A bit like pitting the Japanese Super Dreadnaught Yamato against a light cruiser - you just don't do it!)

Dancing around heavier ships was OK in Elizabethan times, using the English race-built galleons, which relied more on bad/slow gunnery from their enemies as much as speed and manoeuvrability – but NOT in the 18th Century, especially the second half.

Leave the frigates and sloops for patrol and escort duties, and keep the ‘Ships of the Line’ in the main battle fleets, for blockade and main actions.

[Mechstra]

Heavier/larger ships (Ships of the Line) could sink, or at the very least, shatter a smaller ship, frigates included, with a single broadside. (Which is why ships from Third to First Rate were considered for the line of battle)

I read recently that there was an unofficial gentleman's rule in fleet actions in the 18th and 19th century, to wit that ships of the line would not fire on frigates unless the frigates fired on them first. This was because a single broadside could destroy a frigate, and was tantamount to murder.