Campaign strategy discussion - GCS.

[devilbean]

238 BC (vh/m)

In the west, a 20 year war with Rome is drawing to an end. Greek boots are all over Italy and the Romans have a single settlement left north of Mediolanum. I've been meaning to make them a protectorate to avoid creating a border with Germania but they won't accept, even though I've completely won the war and could wipe them out in an instant. So they're keeping that settlement, for now, because I have no interest in risking a war with the barbarians.

The two south-eastern settlements in Sicily are also mine, and the Carthaginians have kept theirs. For now I don't think a war with them would be a stellar idea so if they stay friendly, I'll let them keep it.

In the north, the war agaisnt Thrace was won a few decades ago but I have allowed them to keep all of their settlements beyond the river Danube to keep a buffer against Scythia (which is HUGE). Same as the Romans, I'd like to make them a protectorate but they've always refused. Technically we're still at war, but I've blocked all the bridges on the Danube and placed a fort between the Alps and the river's source so the border is perfectly safe. They send a stack at one of the bridges every now and then, but their efforts are easily contained.

To the east, the Independent Greeks have taken most of Asia Minor and they've hit the Ptolemies hard, spreading south into the Nile delta. They're also at war with the Seleucids and have taken a bite out of their empire as well. Byzantium is mine, and I've got a foothold in Halicarnassus but that's as far as my armies have marched as I was busy mopping the floor with legions.

Logically it seems the best move at this point would be to go for Asia Minor and the Indi Greeks (they've never agreed to make peace anyways), but I'm worried with Scythia. I scouted their lands and they've taken over a very large part of the world. The faction ranking graph puts them way beyond everyone else (we're in second place, but by a long shot), so I feel like I might need to crush them while I still can or it'll be too late. They are at war with Thrace, so it is only a question of time before we have common borders. And seeing how they're at war with pretty much everyone around them, it's probably safe to say I'll be next on the list. Besides, the victory conditions state that I must take one of the towns in the Crimean peninsula to win, and that's Scythian turf.

That said, if there was a way to avoid a conflict with them I would be more than happy to take that route. Taking over some of the Thracian lands with the intent to give them to one of their allies might be a solution, but how do I know they won't turn on their allies to capture them anyways?

So where do you guys think I should strike next?

[Vercingetorix_Defeated]

Great work thus far, but your greatest threat lies ahead...the might of Rome is nothing compared to the threat from the East!

If you like your empire existing, you should be scheming on the best way to take down the Soviet Union, er, I mean the Scythians.

Buffer states are a great idea in RTW campaigns....against all factions except Scythia. Thrace and Germany usually survive all of 5-10 turns in a war with the Scythians. When that's done, now the Scythians will control a couple dozen more regions, and immediately start recruiting ten thousand german and thracian auxiliaries. This is exactly what happened in my first XGM campaign. You have to try to take them out before then.

My suggestion is that you recruit a whole bunch of whatever you think is best against horse archers, send it into Scythia, and try to burn the place to the ground. Oh, and don't auto resolve, horse archers are stupidly overpowered in auto resolve, they'll trash your troops. It will probably take at least a few dozen or more of the most boring battles you've ever played, but it's the only way to deal with Scythia in XGM.

Other than modifying the game files.

As for avoiding conflict, you can only avoid conflict with powerful factions if you don't have a border with them and they're far away, generally.

Scythia in XGM wants world domination. They will try to take over every province on every continent. Whether it's in Africa or Europe, they don't care. So there isn't really a way to avoid it, only to delay the inevitable. As soon as they have a border with you it's just a matter of time until they decide to attack.

[devilbean]

That sounds sensible enough.

Should I try to actually hold their lands? Cause I'm thinkin scorched earth here. I don't know if this is possible, but ideally I'd want to cripple their economy into an unrecoverable situation where all the wars they're in will backfire on them and their enemies will take back what they lost to them. Then I could keep expanding happily around the Mediterranean as a historically accurate Greek would. With some re-organising I think I can sustain four full stacks. One will keep pushing west towards Iberia. One will head into Asia Minor. The other two will rampage through Scythia, capturing weakly defended cities and generally exterminating as many of their people as they'll manage. Oh and did I mention burning everything down? The tricky bit will be keeping the stacks at full strength... Mother Russia makes for long supply lines.

What do you think? Good plan or not?

[Vercingetorix_Defeated]

That sounds sensible enough.

Should I try to actually hold their lands? Cause I'm thinkin scorched earth here. I don't know if this is possible, but ideally I'd want to cripple their economy into an unrecoverable situation where all the wars they're in will backfire on them and their enemies will take back what they lost to them. Then I could keep expanding happily around the Mediterranean as a historically accurate Greek would. With some re-organising I think I can sustain four full stacks. One will keep pushing west towards Iberia. One will head into Asia Minor. The other two will rampage through Scythia, capturing weakly defended cities and generally exterminating as many of their people as they'll manage. Oh and did I mention burning everything down? The tricky bit will be keeping the stacks at full strength... Mother Russia makes for long supply lines.

What do you think? Good plan or not?

Definitely go scorched earth. Exterminate every settlement and demolish all of the buildings in them you can, you'll make a ton of money doing so and also ensure that those bastards won't be able to come back as quickly even if they do recover their settlements.

Saves you a lot of time too, because you can just march your armies into a city, and then remove all of the troops from them and march to the second one, rather than having to use some front line troops to garrison the towns you take. They'll get the settlements back via revolt soon enough, but if they can't recruit anyone in the settlement because there are no people and no recruiting buildings, they're basically useless, and make no income too.

Why are you sending stacks to Iberia though?

Oh.....are you telling me that Scythia has taken over Asia Minor AND lands as far as Iberia? Damn, that's even worse than my first campaign that was completely ruined by Scythia.

When dealing with a Scythian infestation that bad, I'd recommend using force diplomacy. Make them give most of their conquests of to you, and then give them back to who they should belong too, assuming that the Scythians haven't completely eradicated their enemies from the world.

Otherwise, it might be too late, and all of the interesting diverse factions will have been crushed by the barbarian horse archers, in which case all you will ever fight again are horse archers, the most boring battles ever.

[TM Is Back]

You should go amphibious now. Assemble a stack or 5 and then launch the attack on Scytia's home. You must do that in 1 time, don't sent one stack ahead of the others. Take the Crimean, and the Scytian settlements next to the crimean. Next, send an army north to take their captial, and thus their founding monument. Now you have crippled them very much. While you do this, keep a sharp look out at your borders. Should the Indie Greeks attack you, let them besiege you. Time after time you can defeat them in the siege battles.

[DimeBagHo]

It might be worth keeping the Crimean settlements (they are quite profitable and not too hard to defend. If you're really keen, keep all the coastal settlements. Don't bother with the inland stuff.

Personally I prefer scorched earth. Burn down their settlements and give them to some other barbarian faction. Once you take their starting capital they won't cause any more problems.

BTW, which version of XGM are you using?

[Scutarii]

No, he's saying he wants to keep expanding in other areas that aren't Scythian: one stack to fight in Asia Minor, one stack to fight against Iberia, and two stacks to fight the Scythians.

Ideally, the situation would be: take some stacks with siege weapons (onagers) to crimea, raze it and give the cities to the Indie Greeks, then sack your way to Campus Roxolani (their capital, important you take this), giving away the settlements to the Indie Celts (use force diplo to make them accept your offers of free settlements, just ask for map info in return because force diplo won't work with gifts)

[devilbean]

BTW, which version of XGM are you using?

5.8xx (not sure of the exact number as the game is on my other computer, but I downloaded it from the link in one of the stickies here less than two weeks ago).

And like Scutarii said, I'm not going to fight the Scythians in Iberia .

I just want to keep spreading on the coasts of the Mediterranean, since sea trade seems to be much more lucrative than anything else and I have the ressources to do it.

Right now I'm in the process of re-organizing the armies and I'm debating on wether or not I should take my elite heavy infantry into Scythia. The Spartans/Athenians and sacred bands can definetely tank pretty much anything but I wonder if they are going to be useful at all when facing horse archers. I haven't fought against Scythia yet so I'm not too sure about what sort of army I should bring. Well since you guys mentioned horse archers I figured I'd have to bring heavy cavalry; I'm just not sure exactly how much of it I need. The spies I have on scouting duty haven't seen a full stack from them yet so I can't tell what their army composition looks like for sure. Are they 100% cavalry?

As for the battle plan, I'll land in the Crimean with two stacks + garrison troops for those two greek towns. They'll provide the base of operations for the raid into Scythia as they should have the infrastracture needed to retrain the troops. I'll fight a way to their capital, burn it to the ground, and then we'll see. If the men are still in good fighting shape, I might foray deeper into Scythia. If they've taken a beating, I'll retreat to Crimea and lick my wounds. And if I'm defeated before getting to their capital... Well, let's just hope that doesn't happen.

Surely they can't stop the might of Greece

[Vercingetorix_Defeated]

They aren't 100% horse archers, if they've taken some lands from Thrace and other places then they can recruit a lot of auxiliaries there. The Scythian armies I fought in Thrace were half Thracian, half horse archer basically.

The horse archers are a real pain to chase down on the battle map, they'll inflict steady casualties on all but the most heavily armored units as they run away. Even if you can catch and kill most of them, there will always be that one last unit that runs away and keeps pace with your forces chasing it.

Rather than attack them, position your armies on bridges in their territory and wait for them to attack you.

When they attack you on the bridge, they'll all have to run across the bridge at you. This will bring most of them right into your pikes and hoplites and whatnot, should end the battle a lot more quickly and nicely.

Also, have your armies siege towns, then they will be forced to attack you. Whenever the AI attacks you they have to send most of their forces right at you. As long as you have a couple of cavalry units to chase down the horse archers you should have no trouble in that instance.

Of course, you'll probably have to repeat it a couple dozen times before Scythia is beaten, that's why I wouldn't bother.

[GoldShield Guard]

Yesterday I started my first ever playing with XGM, as GCS of course (H/H). I did it very well with Macedonians, I took three settlements in the second turn of the AI! I love that all troops can march a log distance in the strategic map.

Anyway, before playing for the first time, I have read a lot of the threads in this forum. I have seen many many times, that people express complaints about Scynthians and the power they have in the game.

So the question is, why DimeBagHo does not modify the game in such a way, that the horse archers are not so strong? Especially in the autoresolve? Or the real intention is the Scynthians to be the last standing opponent in every campaign?

I am really confused about this.

[TM Is Back]

It is not the Horse Achers that are so strong, but their Light (javalin armed and with axes) Cavalry. They just kill your armoured soldiers like butter.

[devilbean]

Perfect. Then I think I've got all I need to defeat them.

One last thing - do you think it might be worth bringing a few of the noble cavalry (the ones with funny feathers on their helmet )? They definetely pack a punch but regular heavies might do the trick... And are considerably cheaper.

[Vercingetorix_Defeated]

Perfect. Then I think I've got all I need to defeat them.

One last thing - do you think it might be worth bringing a few of the noble cavalry (the ones with funny feathers on their helmet )? They definetely pack a punch but regular heavies might do the trick... And are considerably cheaper.

Noble are 2 turns to recruit, heavy are just 1, right?

One of my Greek armies has a heavy cavalry and a noble cavalry, and they perform identically. When they fight the same units, they take about the same number of casualties. I would just recruit heavy instead, and get more of them.

When you get into Scythia and the like, recruit a bunch of expendable auxiliary cavalry. They should help in getting a cavalry force up quick.

[devilbean]

Situation Report

After a 5 year pillaging campaign through Scythia they are reduced to a regional power and will never threaten Greece again (or anyone, for that matter). And it wasn't even too costly because I exterminated and looted everything. The annoying thing though is that my faction leader and another good family member (lots of command stars) died of the plague up in the steppes. But apart from that - mission accomplished. We're now ranked no.1 on the faction graphs and Scythia has plumetted to the lower tier.

[Vercingetorix_Defeated]

Situation Report

After a 5 year pillaging campaign through Scythia they are reduced to a regional power and will never threaten Greece again (or anyone, for that matter). And it wasn't even too costly because I exterminated and looted everything. The annoying thing though is that my faction leader and another good family member (lots of command stars) died of the plague up in the steppes. But apart from that - mission accomplished. We're now ranked no.1 on the faction graphs and Scythia has plumetted to the lower tier.

Hahaha, you thought it was that easy? You think the Scythians are just crushed like that?

As long as the Ring endures, Scythia will always return! And as long as their stats in the text files remain stupidly ovepowered, they will get you in a following campaign, or after you update your XGM to the next version!

[DimeBagHo]

Hahaha, you thought it was that easy? You think the Scythians are just crushed like that?

As long as the Ring endures, Scythia will always return! And as long as their stats in the text files remain stupidly ovepowered, they will get you in a following campaign, or after you update your XGM to the next version!

No, once they lose their capital they are pretty much done. No more money and no more free experience bonus.

[Vercingetorix_Defeated]

I was joking...but then again, maybe they will come back! Only time will tell hahaha.

Speaking of that, why do capitals give free money and experience bonuses exactly? (I know its technically because the monuments are there, I'm asking why is it there gameplay wise, it doesn't seem historical or balanced, it makes factions either overpowered when they have the monument and underpowered when they lose it, since most don't seem to care about defending their capital more than any other city)

If that was the case, wouldn't the Romans have been screwed right from the start because the Gauls sacked Rome in the 4th century BC, I guess they would have lost all of their free money and experience and would have never amounted to anything

[aznflea]

No, once they lose their capital they are pretty much done. No more money and no more free experience bonus.

its easier said than done.

i dont think you can even get to the capital without being shot at from afar by those damn centaurs.

[Darth Alec]

For balance. Because the AI is retarded.

[Vercingetorix_Defeated]

For balance. Because the AI is retarded.

That's not balance at all.

Why not just have the player automatically lose the campaign, to give the retarded AI a chance?

AI in every game is 'retarded'. The capacity isn't there yet for it to be that smart. Does every game stupidly overpower the AI to "compensate" for this? Of course not. That just makes it boring and frustrating to play, not fun. Do shooter games give the AI a 100% chance of headshotting the player whenever its possible, simply because they could, and that would make it more "challenging"? Of course not.

It's pretty hilarious that if somebody played a RTW mod campaign and their experience was like Julius Caesar, winning every battle and taking over most of the civilized world with seeming ease, the reaction would probably be "omgz, the Romans are so overpowered, the Gallic AI are retarded, let's make the Gauls recruit dozens of elite stacks of super gauls to make sure this doesn't happen again, etc"

Or, they would be like Europa Barbaroum and RTR, and try to make the game more "realistic", with apparently no clue what "realistic" means, so decide to make up a bunch of arbitrary rules and requirements that just slow down the game to a glacial, and stupidly unhistorical pace.

If Julius Caesar had lived in the same Rome that exists in the mods like EB and RTR, he wouldn't have been able to recruit his legions at all, instead he would have had to sit around in his provinces for 5 years fiddling with "military industrial complexes", and maybe, after 10 years of construction, he'd be able to recruit 100 peltasts a year.

I guess history in general would be a hell of a lot more boring if it was as slow paced as those mods, though.

It's such a pity that some of these mods that the modders put so much work into are brought down by their obsession with what they see as "realism" or historical accuracy. All of the beautiful models and textures go to waste when you have to wade through dozens and dozens of turns of endless boring building trees and browsers just to recruit one unit of them, and when you will never see the huge epic battles involving high end units because it takes an ungodly amount of time for the infrastructure to be built up to recruit them.

That's what XGM does best, keeping the infrastructure building relatively general and basic, so as to not waste the player's time with hours and hours of required building micromanagement if he wants to get anywhere. Instead you can focus on the actual "war" part of the game.