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Thread: EB-Twitter updates Discussion

  1. #5021

    Default Re: EB-Twitter updates Discussion

    We forgot to show most of the shields used by the early Lusitanian elite infantry, so here they are:



    The textures have been made by Mathieu. The patterns are based on the iconography we can find among the material culture that belong to two peoples that actively participated in the Lusitanian Wars: the Celtici and the Vettones. Only the golden pattern of the red shield would belong to the Lusitanians who inhabited to the north of the river Tagus. It seems that these last peoples, unlike the Lusitanians to the south of the river Tagus, the Vettones and the Celtici, played a secondary role during the Viriathus' War.

    There is also an interesting shield with a wooden umbo. It would belong to a Vettonian warrior: while the pattern is clearly influenced by the Celtiberian pottery, the wooden umbo is a feature imported from the eastern Iberian world. Our warriors could have this unusual shield in the western lands due to mercenarism, exchange of gifts between aristocrats, etc.

  2. #5022
    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Gatorade, is it in you?
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    Default Re: EB-Twitter updates Discussion

    I love the new Lusitani elite! They look totally awesome! I wasn't expecting them to look so...Hellenistic in terms of their armor and gear, but I'm pleasantly surprised nonetheless.

  3. #5023
    Lusitanio's Avatar Content Staff
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    Default Re: EB-Twitter updates Discussion

    I'm a simple man, I see a Trarco post about history, I give him +1 rep

  4. #5024

    Default Re: EB-Twitter updates Discussion

    I must say that the late celtiberian youth unit is looking great!

    Question 1: Has the broken shield hand wrist issue been fixed? I know it plagued the early version. I can't see if it fixed on the new screens.

    Question 2: What kind of armor is this? What is it based on? Looks like hooped leather armor.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    Question 3: The early version has a mail armor, the late version does not. Why is that so?


    Suggestion 1: Maybe move the scabbards a little further out so there are no clipping issues when the soldiers are in combat stance? Or have the tunic fit closer to the body?
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    Suggestion 2: Polish up the vertical line in the upper part of the helmet. It's detracting the overall awesomeness of the unit.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Last edited by Rad; July 25, 2019 at 10:10 AM.
    I recommend a pugio rather than a spear, because in close quarters combat, a dagger will serve you better than a spear.

    Rad, 2016.

  5. #5025

    Default Re: EB-Twitter updates Discussion

    Also, what is up with mixing thureos type shields witch caetras?

    I could learn a lot from this unit
    I recommend a pugio rather than a spear, because in close quarters combat, a dagger will serve you better than a spear.

    Rad, 2016.

  6. #5026
    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Gatorade, is it in you?
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    Default Re: EB-Twitter updates Discussion

    Yeah, am I seeing that right as well? The late version should have chain mail, not the other way around. Right? No?

    Also, the Iberians probably did use a mixture of Thureos and Caetratas shields among the same troops at their disposal. Old habits die hard, after all, and they weren't exactly into uniformity in the way that a Greek polis could sometimes impose it.

    Overall I think they look great!

  7. #5027

    Default Re: EB-Twitter updates Discussion

    Loving the new Lybian Cavalry looking buff

    Will they start like that or is it an "armor upgrade"?

  8. #5028
    Lusitanio's Avatar Content Staff
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    Default Re: EB-Twitter updates Discussion

    The new Lybian Cavalry look awesome! It shows a dedicated work there and for me, it is currently one of the most beautiful units in the mod.

  9. #5029

    Default Re: EB-Twitter updates Discussion

    Nice!
    I recommend a pugio rather than a spear, because in close quarters combat, a dagger will serve you better than a spear.

    Rad, 2016.

  10. #5030

    Default Re: EB-Twitter updates Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Roma_Victrix View Post
    I love the new Lusitani elite! They look totally awesome! I wasn't expecting them to look so...Hellenistic in terms of their armor and gear, but I'm pleasantly surprised nonetheless.
    It's true that they look a bit "Hellenistic" but technically, the only Hellenistic element would be the linothorax. It's inspired by an aristocratic Vettonian grave where the hellenistic silver plaques you can see attached to the linothorax have been discovered. Originally, the first archaeologists thought that the plaques formed part of a belt but a modern hypothesis suggests that they might belong to an organic armour because they appeared together with an iron cardiophylax. So, according to this idea, this existence of this exotic organic armour in the Vettonian lands could be related to some practices such as aristocratic/diplomatic presents or mercenarism.

    I guess that the other "Hellenistic" item is the bronze helmet. Although this helmet was copied by Celtiberian mercenaries in southern Italy, it was modified and locally produced in the Iberian Peninsula (more or less, like it happened with the falcata), so this time, the helmet shouldn't be considered Hellenistic but a local element of the native panoply (especially among Celtiberian aristocrats)



    Quote Originally Posted by Rad View Post
    I must say that the late celtiberian youth unit is looking great!

    Question 1: Has the broken shield hand wrist issue been fixed? I know it plagued the early version. I can't see if it fixed on the new screens.
    Sorry, I'm not familiar with that problem, could you show it to me?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rad View Post
    Question 2: What kind of armor is this? What is it based on? Looks like hooped leather armor.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Yes, it's an organic armour. This type of linen/leather armour is attested in the written sources. The specific model is inspired by an archaeological reenactment. The model tries to represent that this armour has been formed by several layers of organic material.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rad View Post
    Question 3: The early version has a mail armor, the late version does not. Why is that so?
    The early version doesn't use a chainmail armour, but an organic one.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rad View Post
    Also, what is up with mixing thureos type shields witch caetras?

    I could learn a lot from this unit
    That wasn't an uncommon practice. Once the thureos was introduced in Iberia it co-existed with the caetra. Although the thureos offers better protection, the caetra was still the most used shield by the Iberian units. Both shields are functionally similar, so from a tactical perspective, they can be used by the same group of warriors successfully. Basically, as the archaeology reveals, the Iberian peoples tended to keep archaic elements of the panoply. It can be seen in the antennae swords, the falcata, some shield-bosses of thureos or the caetra.


    Quote Originally Posted by Raiuga View Post
    Loving the new Lybian Cavalry looking buff

    Will they start like that or is it an "armor upgrade"?
    They will start like that.
    Last edited by Trarco; August 21, 2019 at 08:28 PM.

  11. #5031
    tomySVK's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: EB-Twitter updates Discussion

    Amazing updates and units, I really like new Lusitanian elite infantry - magnificient and fearsome opponents

  12. #5032

    Default Re: EB-Twitter updates Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Trarco View Post
    Sorry, I'm not familiar with that problem, could you show it to me?
    Sure. It's best seen on the Ilergetan swordsmen units, but it's also affecting the new celtiberian youths. Here you go.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    Quote Originally Posted by Trarco View Post
    Yes, it's an organic armour. This type of linen/leather armour is attested in the written sources. The specific model is inspired by an archaeological reenactment. The model tries to represent that this armour has been formed by several layers of organic material.
    I would very much like to see and read about that armor and its construction process. Is there a text in English somewhere?


    Quote Originally Posted by Trarco View Post
    The early version doesn't use a chainmail armour, but an organic one.
    That's not true. The early version has a mailed warrior in it. I asked about that tube and yoke mail armor earlier. Look.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 




    Quote Originally Posted by Trarco View Post
    That wasn't an uncommon practice. Once the thureos was introduced in Iberia it co-existed with the caetra. Although the thureos offers better protection, the caetra was still the most used shield by the Iberian units. Both shields are functionally similar, so from a tactical perspective, they can be used by the same group of warriors successfully. Basically, as the archaeology reveals, the Iberian peoples tended to keep archaic elements of the panoply. It can be seen in the antennae swords, the falcata, some shield-bosses of thureos or the caetra.
    I disagree about them being functionally similar. The thureos is akin to the medieval pavise (the infantry version of the pavise), while the caetra is similar to Viking round shields/bucklers, depending on its size. Pavise shields and center grip round shields/bucklers are very different types of shields, used in different ways. Round shields and bucklers are used much more actively to bind and control the enemy.
    Last edited by Rad; August 22, 2019 at 10:06 AM.
    I recommend a pugio rather than a spear, because in close quarters combat, a dagger will serve you better than a spear.

    Rad, 2016.

  13. #5033
    Marvzilla's Avatar Ducenarius
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    Default Re: EB-Twitter updates Discussion

    The pavise ? There have been other, much more similar oval shields in the early and high medieval periods, for example used by the Romans and Germans.

  14. #5034

    Default Re: EB-Twitter updates Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Marvzilla View Post
    The pavise ? There have been other, much more similar oval shields in the early and high medieval periods, for example used by the Romans and Germans.
    Big shield, used by infantry. They're similar. I was feeling tired from work and I wasn't diligent enough. Sue me
    Of course, there are large medieval shields that resemble the thureos more closely. What they all have in common with the thureos is that they really can't be used to bind and control the opponent's weapons/shield like the caetra/buckler/center grip round shield can.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    I recommend a pugio rather than a spear, because in close quarters combat, a dagger will serve you better than a spear.

    Rad, 2016.

  15. #5035
    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Gatorade, is it in you?
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    Default Re: EB-Twitter updates Discussion

    The new Libyan cavalry look great! Bravo for making that one.

  16. #5036
    QuintusSertorius's Avatar EBII Hod Carrier
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    Default Re: EB-Twitter updates Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Roma_Victrix View Post
    The new Libyan cavalry look great! Bravo for making that one.
    They'd been using a placeholder for a long time - we do remember to replace them.

  17. #5037

    Default Re: EB-Twitter updates Discussion

    What about the Libyan skirmishers? Will they get a new version? Mind you, the current ones are not bad. In fact, I love the late version.
    I recommend a pugio rather than a spear, because in close quarters combat, a dagger will serve you better than a spear.

    Rad, 2016.

  18. #5038
    QuintusSertorius's Avatar EBII Hod Carrier
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    Default Re: EB-Twitter updates Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Rad View Post
    What about the Libyan skirmishers? Will they get a new version? Mind you, the current ones are not bad. In fact, I love the late version.
    No. The cavalry got a new version because the old was basically just a mounted version of the foot skirmishers, ie not a final unit at all.

  19. #5039

    Default Re: EB-Twitter updates Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Rad View Post
    Sure. It's best seen on the Ilergetan swordsmen units, but it's also affecting the new celtiberian youths. Here you go.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Thanks for noticing that


    Quote Originally Posted by Rad View Post
    I would very much like to see and read about that armor and its construction process. Is there a text in English somewhere?
    The only English text about the reenactment of a linen armour is the following one:



    Aldrete, G. S.; Bartell, S.; Aldrete, S. (2013): Reconstructing Ancient Linen Body Armor: Unraveling the Linothorax Mystery. Baltimore: Johns Hopkins University Press.



    The reenactment is about a Greek linothorax but in general terms, the basic ideas are not so different.



    Quote Originally Posted by Rad View Post
    That's not true. The early version has a mailed warrior in it. I asked about that tube and yoke mail armor earlier. Look.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    That is not a chainmail armour but an organic one.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rad View Post
    I disagree about them being functionally similar. The thureos is akin to the medieval pavise (the infantry version of the pavise), while the caetra is similar to Viking round shields/bucklers, depending on its size. Pavise shields and center grip round shields/bucklers are very different types of shields, used in different ways. Round shields and bucklers are used much more actively to bind and control the enemy.
    The comparison between an Iberian caetra and a buckler isn't too appropriate just (wrongly) helpful if you want to analyse the use of a caetra and a thureos from a Medieval perspective. Remember that the pre-Roman caetra measured 65 cm in diameter and they were even bigger since archaeology has revealed that this type of shield could reach 100 cm in diameter (so, like an aspis). Although I agree about the active use of the caetra (for example attested in the written sources in a Lusitanian context), I don't agree with your reasoning. The main purpose of the caetra isn't to attack but to defend. In this regard, both the caetra and the thureos are functionally similar: both of them have a similar weight and both of them allowed Iberians to fight either in skirmish order or as line infantry. The main difference is that the thureos provided better protection than the caetra in pitched battle, but both of them are compatible.

  20. #5040

    Default Re: EB-Twitter updates Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Trarco View Post
    That is not a chainmail armour but an organic one.
    I must be going blind then. To me, it looks that the warrior in the light blue tunic is wearing mail armor, similar to the one the late Illergete spearman in the center of the image bellow is wearing. You're telling me that the armor in question is organic tube and yoke armor? If so, the colors are misleading to say the least.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 






    Quote Originally Posted by Trarco View Post
    The comparison between an Iberian caetra and a buckler isn't too appropriate just (wrongly) helpful if you want to analyse the use of a caetra and a thureos from a Medieval perspective. Remember that the pre-Roman caetra measured 65 cm in diameter and they were even bigger since archaeology has revealed that this type of shield could reach 100 cm in diameter (so, like an aspis).
    I also compared the caetra to Viking round shields which were also center gripped and of the same dimensions. You must have missed it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trarco View Post
    The main purpose of the caetra isn't to attack but to defend.
    If you only use a nimble shield as a wall between you and the enemy, you're wasting its defensive potential. Look at the medieval fencing manuscript called I.33. It features extremely active use of the shield as a defensive weapon. Fencing instructors like Roland Warzecha have applied the techniques mentioned in the manuscript to viking age round shields.


    Quote Originally Posted by Trarco View Post
    In this regard, both the caetra and the thureos are functionally similar: both of them have a similar weight and both of them allowed Iberians to fight either in skirmish order or as line infantry. The main difference is that the thureos provided better protection than the caetra in pitched battle, but both of them are compatible.
    Yes, both types of shield help their users to survive. They are similar in that regard.

    Btw, how do you know that the shields in question are similar in weight?
    I recommend a pugio rather than a spear, because in close quarters combat, a dagger will serve you better than a spear.

    Rad, 2016.

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