Thread: EB-Twitter updates Discussion

  1. #4161

    Default Re: EB-Twitter updates Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by bordinis View Post
    What are Amorican units? Germanic tribal men?
    Armorica, meaning "by the sea", is the antiquated name for the region approximately equivalent to Brittany.

  2. #4162

    Default Re: EB-Twitter updates Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by bordinis View Post
    Always forget to ask: Did Gallic Oathsworn fought with spears or swords primarily? In EB2 they fight with spears, but were they rich enough to have swords? ( Nedes Nesamoi ) i mean.
    Archaeologically speaking, in those regions with long lasting burial cultures (Champagne-Ardenne, the lower Paris basin, Swiss plateau, central northern Italy) there is a general trend in early graves (c.450-300BC) for the only weapon present to be spears. Some swords occur, however shields are very rare. By the late Iron Age (c.150-20BC) most graves contain spears, shields and swords. The frequency of helmets varies according to region. Generally speaking, use of swords appears restricted to certain social classes, and often specific age groups within these classes.

    Hope that helps.

  3. #4163

    Default Re: EB-Twitter updates Discussion

    Thank You very much for your answers!

  4. #4164
    tomySVK's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: EB-Twitter updates Discussion

    Amazing updates on twitter. Thanks!

  5. #4165

    Default Re: EB-Twitter updates Discussion

    The new textures and units look amazing!
    Will they be available in the next patch?

    P.S. I found an unpreviewed Boii unit in 2.3. You sneaky bastards!

  6. #4166

    Default Re: EB-Twitter updates Discussion

    When will 2.3a release?Because I hear it may be not compatible with 2.3 saves.

  7. #4167
    QuintusSertorius's Avatar EBII Hod Carrier
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    Default Re: EB-Twitter updates Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by HuoShan View Post
    When will 2.3a release?Because I hear it may be not compatible with 2.3 saves.
    In a few weeks time. By then we should have gathered fixes for any of the obvious stuff, and people will have played their first faction or two.

    No patch is ever savegame compatible.

  8. #4168

    Default Re: EB-Twitter updates Discussion

    Is there any master blaster two handed weapon unit coming up with no javelins equipped ? Those swordsmen in Britain.. Been waiting for those for years.. Any axemen for Sweboz with wolf heads planned? ;D A man can dream..

  9. #4169

    Default Re: EB-Twitter updates Discussion

    2h Celtic sword units were ahistorical works of fiction from EB1, unfortunately.

  10. #4170

    Default Re: EB-Twitter updates Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Genghis Skahn View Post
    2h Celtic sword units were ahistorical works of fiction from EB1, unfortunately.
    Even the nekkid Celts were like "no shield? That's not going to end well..."

  11. #4171
    alex33's Avatar Ordinarius
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    Default Re: EB-Twitter updates Discussion

    Wow. As an austrian and history fan THANK YOU!



  12. #4172
    gustave's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: EB-Twitter updates Discussion


  13. #4173
    QuintusSertorius's Avatar EBII Hod Carrier
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    Default Re: EB-Twitter updates Discussion

    They're also very slightly heavier than the Diuixioroi they replace. Stout men from what-will-become-Austria.

  14. #4174

    Default Re: EB-Twitter updates Discussion

    About the units you've been recently pumping out.
    They look amazing, folks. Well done. Very well done!

    However, I'd argue against your current equipment choices.

    As it stands, you are giving some units things like mail or muscled cuirasses, but at the same time, not all of the models are wearing helmets.

    So, what happens is that we get to see some fighters wearing a very expensive piece of body armor, while missing a cheaper, but important piece of defensive gear - the helmet.

    I fully understand the reasoning behind it. Historical armies were far from uniform, and in a group of fighters, there would be the rich who could afford full panoply, the less affluent who could buy parts of it, and those who could only get basic things like a weapon and a shield.

    However, the EB engine messes things up by randomly assigning different parts to a model. So, a warrior might get either body armor+helmet, helmet+clothing, or just body armor with a bare head/hat... the last combo is illogical. Protecting one's head is far more important than protecting the torso, especially if one has a shield like most melee units in the game do. Furthermore, it's more financially attainable, because a helmet is considerably cheaper than a muscled cuirass/scale/mail armor. I'm fine with this being disregarded with things like linen and leather armor, because the price difference isn't so big.

    Suggestion: Unless it's possible to mod the units so equipment is assigned in a more natural, less random way, give heavy body armor only to units that are fully helmeted, for lack of better words. It will make far more sense.
    Last edited by Rad; November 02, 2017 at 11:26 AM.

  15. #4175
    QuintusSertorius's Avatar EBII Hod Carrier
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    Default Re: EB-Twitter updates Discussion

    You're overlooking a very important element here: culture. All the units you're observing are Celtic, and despite making very good helmets, we don't actually have a lot of evidence that Celts were big proponents of wearing them. Trying to apply this universal "everyone must wear a helmet as a minimum if they're armoured" rule simply doesn't fit.

  16. #4176

    Default Re: EB-Twitter updates Discussion

    What is your evidence, or lack thereof?
    What would make Celts prone to wear heavy body armor but not wear helmets,despite that:
    they're cheaper and faster to produce than heavy body armor,
    they cover an exposed and highly vulnerable area of the body, and,
    as you said, they're good at making them?

    Bravery isn't the answer. The "brave" Celts (Gaesatae in the game) wear no armor at all. Actually... a few Gaisatoi in the game do have helmets, but none have body armor.
    At the time of that unit's concept creation, the team was going in the right direction, as evidenced by other units.

    Cost and time saving isn't the answer. Making mail is time consuming business. A shirt would take weeks, months to make (the estimated time varies from 300 to 900 work hours, depending on the size of the shirt, diameter of the rings, riveting method etc).Even if the labor was done by unpaid slaves, it would be wasteful to divert time and energy into mail, rather than making helmets.
    I've spoken with an armorer. He said that he could probably churn out 20 practical helmets a week if he had to. And that's coming from a guy that uses traditional tools and techniques. Let's say he hugely overestimated himself, and he could only make 5-10 helmets a week. That's still 20-40 helmets to one shirt of mail.

    Comfort isn't the answer. Celtic helmets are open faced, so vision, breathing and hearing aren't a problem. Being open helmets, heat isn't a big issue, since heat has plenty of room to escape.

    If one wears a big shield like the Thureos, he gains more benefit from wearing a helmet than wearing body armor. Look at the weapons the Celts liked to use - stabbing spears and slashing swords (for the most part). Since the shield covers the torso, the majority of attacks should to the shoulder, neck and head area.

    From what I've been able to gather, the number of surving Celtic helmets is considerably higher than the number of surving Celtic body armor.
    Last edited by Rad; November 02, 2017 at 02:34 PM.

  17. #4177
    Marvzilla's Avatar Ducenarius
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    Default Re: EB-Twitter updates Discussion

    A lot of your points are valid, the helmet is the most essential piece of defensive equipment especially if the wearer also has a shield. The only explanation I can see for the missing helmets is the description of the Getai beliefs, for example, not wearing a helmet so that you can distingiush yourself better infront of the gods and your comrades.

  18. #4178

    Default Re: EB-Twitter updates Discussion

    Getai aren't Celts, even if that statement is true. Not denying it, just haven't checked it out for myself.
    Also, lol... Let's say it's true and the Getai went into battle bare headed to appease the Gods... correction - the poor Getai went into battle bare headed to appease the Gods. The rich, important ones seem to have ignored that religious belief.

    Thank you for your opinion. The idea has merits, but I just don't see people ignoring their own safety, when they're probably fully aware of the negative side effects of having a sword burried in the skull. I'm talking about sane people, not nutjobs like the Gaesatae. Hah, their nudity in combat seems more reasonable, actually. If I saw a naked man running towards me I'd be thinking like this - he's not wearing anything, he must be INSANE! On the other hand, if I saw an armored, bare headed (not bear headed, bear headed WOULD be scary) man running towards me, I'd be less inclined to turn and run thinking - he's not wearing a helmet, the silly man. Half measures don't work, I guess.
    Last edited by Rad; November 02, 2017 at 02:42 PM.

  19. #4179
    gustave's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: EB-Twitter updates Discussion

    Helmets are not particularly common in celtic burials where lots of weapons were found, this is why we chose to depict many of them bareheaded or wearing simple leather caps.
    About the body armors, many were probably made of perishable materials like leather or linen and this is why only a few were found.

  20. #4180

    Default Re: EB-Twitter updates Discussion

    There's a good reason why weapons are being found in graves, and armor less so. One wants to honor a dead person as a warrior, yes? Burying the warrior with his weapons suffices, as a warrior is primarily marked by bearing arms (or arming bears), not by wearing armor. Anything other than weapons screams overkill.

    The smart thing to do would be to continue to use the armor, instead of burying the deceased with it, unless you're rich enough to part with it.

    Also, are there many graves where heavy body armor was found, but a helmet was not? If there are lots of burials where mail or other types of expensive body armor was found, but a helmet was not, I am in the wrong. If there aren't many (or any) - as I currently suspect, your argument doesn't say anything other than that metal armor in general isnt commonly found in burials, but helmets sometimes do. In fact, their prevalence reinforces my claim that a helmet would be the first piece of metal armor that a warrior would try to acquire.

    I wasn't saying there's anything wrong about the leather/linen armor + bear headed combo. I accept it as a possibility.The economic difference between a linen/leather armor and a helmet isn't as drastic as the difference between scale/mail/cuirass and a helmet, it's not worth arguing.
    Furthermore, linen can be quilted into armor at home by just about anyone, while shaping metal takes skill, tools and a forge. So, there's reasonable chance we'd see a warrior wearing a form of linothorax, but not wearing a helmet. I've little idea of how leather is processed into armor, so I will restrain myself from commenting on that.

    Of course linen and leather are perishable items... that's where my troubles begin. The gambeson was the most common form of body armor in the Middle Ages, and there's like 3-4 surving examples of it now. Luckily, there are thousands of depictions and written accounts of it. Less so the further we go back in time, but the EB team did a good job.
    Last edited by Rad; November 02, 2017 at 05:34 PM.

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