EB-Twitter updates Discussion

[BarnicleBill1]

Will we see any Sabean factional cav?

[Shadowwalker]

I can see the upcoming units for the Twitter feed (anubis88 likes to space them out, rather than alternate between feast and famine), and there's one I'm really excited about (not the frighten_foot unit I mentioned - not yet). Mercenaries you'll get much use out of in Greece/the Balkans/western Anatolia.

Really excited about? Taking into account the posts I read of you in the past (including your AARs) this could very well be these guys:





Right?

[Rad]

Medium infantry; precursor javelins and either overhand spears or swords; thureoi and some have textile body armour. Equivalent to the Thureophoroi and Machairophoroi, which is why I've used them as placeholders in the meantime.

And helmets?

[Rad]

Really excited about? Taking into account the posts I read of you in the past (including your AARs) this could very well be these guys:





Right?

Is that Celto-Hellenic infantry? If so, they could have a wider recruitment range than Greece/the Balkans/western Anatolia - they could pop up in those Greek colonies in modern day France and Spain, and other places.

This is their recruitment range from EB1
http://europabarbarorum.heimstatt.ne...y&category=any

[Shadowwalker]

Is that Celto-Hellenic infantry? If so, they could have a wider recruitment range than Greece/the Balkans/western Anatolia - they could pop up in those Greek colonies in modern day France and Spain, and other places.

This is their recruitment range from EB1
http://europabarbarorum.heimstatt.ne...y&category=any

Yes, that's the Misthophoroi Keltohellenikoi Hoplitai.
I browsed through the current EDU and these guys seem like the most fitting unit for Quintus' hints.

The recruitment range doesn't exactly fit, granted, but if you have a look at the other units that could fit area-wise (several thracian units for example) .... they are either previewed already (Thrakian Peltastai) or they are elites (Rhomphaiaphoroi) - and we all know how excited Quintus is about elites usually: Not at all.

What could possibly be (although they are sort of an elite unit as well) would be these guys:



The famed Agrianians. There's even an entry for a mercenary Agrianian unit in the EDU .... but again - they're elite. And I remember Quintus writing (about EB I) that he rarely if ever recruited such elite units as long as he had Celtohellekoi and Peltastai.

But well, that all just educated guessing, nothing more.

My bet still lies with the Celtohellenics, my hope lies with both for the Autumn Release.

[Sylon]

Will we see any Sabean factional cav?

Not for the second release.

[QuintusSertorius]

Really excited about? Taking into account the posts I read of you in the past (including your AARs) this could very well be these guys:





Right?

I wish. Really I do, but there's a debate right now as to whether this unit was a fiction. It's not 100% it will even appear in the game, more's the pity.

It's not Agrianians - they're still planned but not on the 2nd release list.

I'll shock you all (no not elites!) by adding that it's a cavalry unit.

And helmets?

They have helmets - shields and high frequency of helmets are minimum requirements for medium infantry.

[QWE_asd]

Is there gonna be Hippeis Thessalikoi and Prodromoi?

[QuintusSertorius]

Is there gonna be Hippeis Thessalikoi and Prodromoi?

Thessalikoi have already been previewed; there is no Hellenistic Prodromoi unit - they've been replaced by the Xystophoroi.

The frighten_foot unit I hinted at before is now on the Twitter preview schedule, though it's three or four units away from present.

[QWE_asd]

Thessalikoi have already been previewed; there is no Hellenistic Prodromoi unit - they've been replaced by the Xystophoroi.

The frighten_foot unit I hinted at before is now on the Twitter preview schedule, though it's three or four units away from present.

I guess that means Misthophoroi Thraikioi Prodromoi.

[tomySVK]

Thanks for new updates from twitter Does the Bartix unit represents the Seleukid thorakitai?

The Lonchophoroi are not skirmishers, they're medium melee-ers with (heavy) javelins.

I´m sorry for my late reply, my PC is crashed. I also done some more little research/reading. Now I have a day off in work, so I finally find the time for this post.

First I don´t understand why Lonchophoroi Hippeis are armed with heavy javelins instead of xyston when they are Hellenistic medium close combat cavalry and they don´t have skirmish ability (I know Xenophon and his advises about cavalry equipment). During the Macedonian conquest of Persian empire in close cavalry combat the xyston was proved more efficient than heavy javelins which were used by the Persian cavalry. Before the battle of Gaugamela even the Persian heavy cavalry was equiped with copy of xyston to face the Macedonian heavy cavalry. It´s against the military logic to change superior weapon of Macedonian origin by Hellenistic powers proud of their Macedonian heritage to heavy javelins.

Here are just few quotations from the books I have:

„The cavalry spear in general use throughout the late Classical and Hellenistic periods was called the xyston, or 'whittled' spear. Its length is not given in the ancient sources, and we do not know if this varied over time. A whole class of cavalry, the xystophoroi or 'lancers', came into being during the Hellenistic period, named after their principal weapon. It is generally thought that Hellenistic cavalry began to use shields only after the Galatian invasions of Greece, which began in 279 BC. These were wooden, sometimes coverd in hide or felt, circular in shape, and large – over a metre (39–40in) in diameter, covering the rider from neck to thigh. They were of two main varieties. The first was reinforced in the centre by a large, circular, bronze boss (umbo). The second was reinforced with a smaller 'barleyvorn'-shaped umbo set on spina (reinforcing rib) across the front. The latter type only seems to have become popular in the 2nd century BC.“ (Macedonian Armies after Alexander 323 – 168 BC, Nicholas Sekunda, 2012, p. 9)

„For the study of the equipment and the subdivision of the Seleucid regular and Guard cavalry, information must be sought for the most part in sources outside those concerned with the Seleucid kingdom. The 'regular' horseman from Alexander on wore breastplates and carried a xyston, to which Diadochs added the shield. Antiochus' right wing in his battle against Molon included xystophoroi cavalry (Polyb. 5.53.2), and Flamininus in his address to the Achaeans described the Seleucid cavalry as 'lonchophoroi and xystophoroi' (Plut. Flam. 17.5). From the battle of Panion onwards, Seleucid regular cavalry seem to have been fully armoured (Polyb. 16.17.6, 30.25.6, Livy 37.40.6, 11)“ (in The Seleucid army, B. Bar-Kochva, 1976, p. 74)

„The relief on the trilingual stele of the Raphia Decree represents the emblematic Figure of Ptolemy IV as a Mecedonian cavalryman with a spear (see Figure 4.3). Earlier non-royal represantation of cavalry of the guard have also been preserved, generally in a funerary context, for example the funeral stele of a Macedonian officer from the late fourth century BC in Alexandria (necropolis of Shiabty) with chiton, cuirass, cloak and a long Macedonian spear, but no helmet (see Figure 4.4). Asclepiodotus and other writers of Tactics refer to such cavalryman as “spear-bearing“ (doratophoroi) or “lance-bearing“ (xystophoroi). They normally wore helmets, while the propagandist representation of Ptolemy IV shows him with the Egyptian double crown. Other essential elements of the equipment were boots and a saffron cloak, probably with purple borders, like those of Alexander’s companions. That boots were closely associated with soldiers in Alexandria is clear from Theocritus’ Idyll 15, where two women on their way to the festival of Adonis in Alexandria describe with some irritation the crowd as “all army boots and uniforms.”
There was great diversity of types of cavalry in the Hellenistic period, and sources to reconstruct the equipment used in the Ptolemaic army are scarce. In the first book of his On the Erythraean Sea, Agatharcides reports that Ptolemy II equipped 100 cavalrymen hired in the Aegean with Kushitestyle quilted armor.75 Around the same time some Hellenistic cavalrymen began to use shields, although this is not attested in Egypt.“ (Army and Sociaty in Ptolemaic Egyt, Christelle Fischer-Bovet, 2014, p. 129 - 131)

„Sekunda reconstructed the dress and heavy cavalry equipment of the guard on the basis or representations on the Alexander sarcophagus, two steles and a wall paiting. They wore a saffron-yellow cloak (chlamys) with purple border, a white tunic (chiton), brown boots, a composite cuirass and probably a Boetian helmet, and later a muscle cuirass perhaps made of a bronze and a so-called Thracian helmet. Their offensive and defensive weapons were a long spear, a sword slung on a baldric and a round shield.“ (Army and Sociaty in Ptolemaic Egyt, Christelle Fischer-Bovet, 2014, p. 150)

Also here are two pictures of ancient art, which shown the Hellenistic cavalry with xyston and shield (there are also several modern illustrations):

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Drawing of the Pergamene bronze battle scene (probably battle of Magnesia) are two probably Pergamene cavalrymen with xyston spears and shields attacking Seleukid phalanx.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Roman denarius of L. M. Torquatus from 113/112 BC. The reverse of these coins depicts Hellenistic cavalryman from 2nd century BC. The Hellenistic original is unknown to this date (there is a Greek letter shown on this coin). The cavalryman is using xyston spear, shield with a reinforcing spina, typical late Hellenistic helmet (the similar helme tis shown on the famous tomb of Lyson and Kallikles).


How the Hellenistic reforms works fo cavalry? Does the reforms only adds new units?

I think that after the reforms the Lonchophoroi Hippeis should replace the Xystophoroi units as their evolution and they should be using shields and xyston spear. I also think that Hetairoi and bodyguards units should be upgraded after reforms thru Med2TW armour upgrades with shields, xyston spears and helmets popular in late Hellenistic to represent the evolution (if this is possible in Med2TW engine). I believe (based on posted posts – monuments, coins, terracottas and quotations) that the Hellenistic cavalry wasn´t the same in the whole Hellenistic period, but there was a evolution and that many units started using shields for better protection as Hellenistic armies in later period faced many enemies (Rome, various barbarian tribes, Parthians, civil wars, other Hellenistic powers) and they tried to lower their casualities.

I´m not saying this should be done in the next release, but it will be great if the EB team will debate this idea/suggestion.

Also it will be great if the Hellenistic generals and officers will be reworked in the future, they really needs some upgrade. I´m not saying this should be done in the next release

I´m sorry for this long post, I hope you will not start to dislike me

[Shadowwalker]

I wish. Really I do, but there's a debate right now as to whether this unit was a fiction. It's not 100% it will even appear in the game, more's the pity.

It's not Agrianians - they're still planned but not on the 2nd release list.

Would be sad to not have the Keltohellenikoi ingame. There were whole Campaigns you could base upon these guys. I remember an EB I Arverni campaign where they were the decisive factor between holding and losing Massalia for more than 10 times. (Not to mention that their "Arverni textures" were absolutely fabulous.)

And I expected that reply about the Agrianians, to be honest. After all you guys are way past the "perhaps around 30 new/reworked units" estimate you made some time ago. Hardly anything left to complain when we get such a huge load of new arrow fodder to throw at our enemies.

I'll be busy with at least 6 "serious" (as in: "aiming to finish them") campaigns (Pontos, Hayasdan, SPQR, Epeiros, Getai, Sab'yn) after the Autumn release. Given my "daily life schedule" this means at best a year, probably longer, until I have played at least all the EB 2.1 campaigns I'm looking forward to the most. And since it was just a bit more than one year between the initial EB II release and the final stages before EB 2.1 chances are not that bad to have EB 2.2 ready or close to ready by then.

Thessalikoi have already been previewed; there is no Hellenistic Prodromoi unit - they've been replaced by the Xystophoroi.

I guess that means Misthophoroi Thraikioi Prodromoi.

Yep, seems like the only logical consequence. I loved these crazy thracian riders in EB I and am looking forward very much to their new appearance.

The frighten_foot unit I hinted at before is now on the Twitter preview schedule, though it's three or four units away from present.

That means: just a week or two until the Rhomphaiaphoroi preview.

[QuintusSertorius]

tomySVK, no need to apologise for your post being long - especially when it's well-reasoned and supported by evidence. That's exactly the sort of critique we like to have. You've hit upon an issue with Hellenistic cavalry - that there are a number of sources, for a number of kingdoms, across a span of time giving a variety of potential panoplies.

Our initial concept was something like this:

These are the standard cavalry of the mid-Hellenistic period. Armed with a hoplite-style panoply, often including greaves, but certainly a thorax of some sort, helmet, and a shield, either the aspis or the cavalry thureos, a flat round shield with thimble spina. We know they carried swords and melee spears, the latter of which may have been near kontos size, but there is also quite good evidence that they carried lonchai as well, throwing spears. They were meant to be versatile cavalry with high survivability, a reflection of the limited numbers of cavalry available to most Hellenistic powers. It is significant that they were not particularly important to the Seleucids, although they do seem to have been fielded in Asia Minor before Magnesia, perhaps as part of local armies than as part of the Seleucid army. I'd still suggest we have a Seleucid variant.

As far as our historians are concerned, there's evidence for both spears and javelins. At first we resolved upon (heavy) javelins and spears, but it later evolved into javelins and swords for greater melee capability. We've tested them in custom battles in melee, and they are beasts.

However, I must correct one misapprehension you have - Lonchophoroi Hippeis are not a replacement for the Xystophoroi. As far as cavalry go, the following substitutions happen with the later "Thorakitai Reform" around 222BC:
Hippeis are replaced by Lonchophoroi Hippeis
Hippakontistai are replaced by Thureopherontes Hippeis

At present, there isn't a reformed replacement for the Xystophoroi; but I'm now wondering whether they need a late, shielded version. There's lots of lancers available to the Hellenistic factions, but all of them are heavily-armoured and unshielded (Thessalikoi, Lydian Promachoi, Ptolemaic Kleruchoi Agema, Molosson Agema, Hetairoi). A lighter, but shielded lancer would be a different thing.



As to bodyguard cavalry, I seem to remember there's a technical hurdle - I don't think they can be upgraded. I'm not even sure you can change the unit they use after the start of the game.

[tomySVK]

Thanks for your reply

However, I must correct one misapprehension you have - Lonchophoroi Hippeis are not a replacement for the Xystophoroi. As far as cavalry go, the following substitutions happen with the later "Thorakitai Reform" around 222BC:
Hippeis are replaced by Lonchophoroi Hippeis
Hippakontistai are replaced by Thureopherontes Hippeis

My bad, I didn´t remember this correctly

A lighter shielded lancer should be great.

[QuintusSertorius]

Thanks for your reply



My bad, I didn´t remember this correctly

A lighter shielded lancer should be great.

In fact, having made some enquiries, there is a planned shielded light lancer unit - the Aspidephoroi Hippeis - but they're lower priority than many other units.

As an aside, in the same thread there's some commentary about a Nabataen Hellenistic foot guard unit - think heavy hoplites with javelins and axes, instead of spears and swords. Badass. Not sure when we'll see them, though.

[Rad]

Armor? Axes? Javelins? Muahahahahaha, awesome! Make 'em!

[LusitanianWolf]

Galatianised, they're Anatolian infantry who've evolved under the influence of fighting the Galatians. They're not necessarily Galatians at all.

That seems pretty cool!

Another levy on the feed; this time a Sabaen levy javelineer (Abdt). If you play Sab'yn in the autumn release, you'll have a lot of these guys available to you, as frequently as Qadub (levy spearmen) are around. Add to them the levy archers and the Arabian slingers, and you've got a full complement of the four basic levy units that form the foundation of any balanced roster.

And they are much welcome! What secundary weapons will they have, knifes? In EB1 Saba had very versatile skirmishers with large shields and spears that could hold their own in a battle line, but with the current Sabaic army composition (Quadub, Khamis, ethiopians, etc) what was realy lacked were dedicated javelinmen, so even if they suck at melee they will do.

(anubis88 likes to space them out, rather than alternate between feast and famine),

I like that policy, gives something to wait and be excited for in less exciting days.

I guess that means Misthophoroi Thraikioi Prodromoi.

That was also what I was gessing... Through in EB2 I expect them to be skirmisher cavalry instead of lancers since we already have a lancer unit and I've read somewhere that more Traikian cavalry were to come.
That or Galatians/some kind of Eastern Celts


Hurray for the Arachosian Cavalry! The Anatolian/Caucasian units are nice but they get boring with so many placeholders using the same model around! Now we'll have a more colorful east!

[Sylon]

The Abdt have underhand longspears as a secondary, making them skirmisher-spearmen.

[QuintusSertorius]

Would be sad to not have the Keltohellenikoi ingame. There were whole Campaigns you could base upon these guys. I remember an EB I Arverni campaign where they were the decisive factor between holding and losing Massalia for more than 10 times. (Not to mention that their "Arverni textures" were absolutely fabulous.)

And I expected that reply about the Agrianians, to be honest. After all you guys are way past the "perhaps around 30 new/reworked units" estimate you made some time ago. Hardly anything left to complain when we get such a huge load of new arrow fodder to throw at our enemies.

I'll be busy with at least 6 "serious" (as in: "aiming to finish them") campaigns (Pontos, Hayasdan, SPQR, Epeiros, Getai, Sab'yn) after the Autumn release. Given my "daily life schedule" this means at best a year, probably longer, until I have played at least all the EB 2.1 campaigns I'm looking forward to the most. And since it was just a bit more than one year between the initial EB II release and the final stages before EB 2.1 chances are not that bad to have EB 2.2 ready or close to ready by then.

I'll be sad if they're ruled out too. They were one of my favourite units in EB1, great line infantry who made many a random migration campaign viable.

Armor? Axes? Javelins? Muahahahahaha, awesome! Make 'em!

Reminds me of the Qestûnarîn (Nabatean Elite Infantry) from the EB1 mod Novus Ordo Mundi:

And they are much welcome! What secundary weapons will they have, knifes? In EB1 Saba had very versatile skirmishers with large shields and spears that could hold their own in a battle line, but with the current Sabaic army composition (Quadub, Khamis, ethiopians, etc) what was realy lacked were dedicated javelinmen, so even if they suck at melee they will do.

They have spears, making them backup spearmen too. They'll suck compared to the Qadub, but they'll still be useful nontheless.

Hurray for the Arachosian Cavalry! The Anatolian/Caucasian units are nice but they get boring with so many placeholders using the same model around! Now we'll have a more colorful east!

Yeah, there's a lot of replacing placeholders for proper units. They should all have gone by the autumn release.

[Shadowwalker]

And the next new units!

Both the Arachosians and the Armenians look stunning.
Soooo looking forward to 2.1 ....

(And hoping I'll have time to spare when it's out. )