EB-Twitter updates Discussion

[NapoleonMaster]

I love it. I love the combination of some wearing iron chainmail and others wearing bronze scale mail. They look incredibly badass. I can't wait to play a campaign with them!

As for the leather linothorax, leather armor of that sort is actually tougher and more defensible than many people realize. However, chainmail armor during the EBII time frame was definitely a boon to the defensive capabilities of heavy infantry. I think the Romans proved that well enough, after adopting it from the Celts. I love the Hellenistic use of chainmail as well, with Thorakitai and Kataphractoi. It goes to show that the Greeks were also moving in that direction thanks to the Galatians and the Romans. In fact, all across the board this can be seen and is demonstrated in EBII with the heavy infantry of the Illyrians (i.e. Illyrian thorakitai), the Thracians (i.e. upgraded Katoikoi), the Libyans (i.e. Libyan heavy swordsmen), the Carthaginians (i.e. upgraded Liby-Phoenician infantry), and even West Asians/Persians (i.e. Galatianised swordsmen) also sporting chainmail armor.

Although the Thureopherontes Toxotai for most factions have bronze scale armor, they actually have iron chainmail in the version for the Bosporan faction.

I would love to upgrade my Phalangitai with chainmail armor.

Even though there are no records of this, it's just a what if situation.

I think that if the helenistic states would have lived longer, a reform in military equipment would have happened.

But that would be good for a submod i guess .

[Cohors_Evocata]

Wait a minute. I just noticed do those guys also carry the awesome barbed Maiotian Javelins?

They do indeed... *shudder*

The Bosporitai Logades are beautiful! Are they a sword or spear unit?

Javelin and sword.

I love it. I love the combination of some wearing iron chainmail and others wearing bronze scale mail. They look incredibly badass. I can't wait to play a campaign with them!

As for the leather linothorax, leather armor of that sort is actually tougher and more defensible than many people realize. However, chainmail armor during the EBII time frame was definitely a boon to the defensive capabilities of heavy infantry. I think the Romans proved that well enough, after adopting it from the Celts. I love the Hellenistic use of chainmail as well, with Thorakitai and Kataphractoi. It goes to show that the Greeks were also moving in that direction thanks to the Galatians and the Romans. In fact, all across the board this can be seen and is demonstrated in EBII with the heavy infantry of the Illyrians (i.e. Illyrian thorakitai), the Thracians (i.e. upgraded Katoikoi), the Libyans (i.e. Libyan heavy swordsmen), the Carthaginians (i.e. upgraded Liby-Phoenician infantry), and even West Asians/Persians (i.e. Galatianised swordsmen) also sporting chainmail armor.

Although the Thureopherontes Toxotai for most factions have bronze scale armor, they actually have iron chainmail in the version for the Bosporan faction.

One might argue it goes beyond the adoption of chainmail. I remember reading an old preview for the RTR VII mod (ah, found it!) which argued that the Hellenistic period saw a gradual moving away from the old hoplitic mode of fighting throughout the Mediterranean area and towards a new style that emphasised smaller units acting more independently; one that relied upon the combination of javelin and sword. I lack the expertise to judge whether that idea is accepted by the historical community, but if our changing rosters are an indication, there may certainly have been tendencies in that the direction (notice the spread of elongated shields among e.g. the Carthagian and Hellenistic, but also the Roman troops).

[QuintusSertorius]

The big influence on the evolution of Hellenistic armies wasn't the Romans, it was the Galatians over a century before them. They killed the king of Makedonia (even if Keravnos was a nutter) and broke phalanxes, that was a real shock to a system that had won an empire.

An interesting article on the changes is here, but it's worth noting that contrary to the way we portray it in EBII, it wasn't a straight line or single direction. Different cities moved back and forth between the hoplite/pike-phalanx/thureophoroi foundation, depending on their fortunes against their rivals.

[alex33]

They do indeed... *shudder*

Pharnisis Apollo be praised! KB campaign here i come =D Why was this kind of Javelin used so much on the bosporus? This is very exciting! I do know from QS that they are local professionals around lake maeotis but I would really love to read Arjos whole concept for them if you could aquire it

[Cohors_Evocata]

The big influence on the evolution of Hellenistic armies wasn't the Romans, it was the Galatians over a century before them. They killed the king of Makedonia (even if Keravnos was a nutter) and broke phalanxes, that was a real shock to a system that had won an empire.

An interesting article on the changes is here, but it's worth noting that contrary to the way we portray it in EBII, it wasn't a straight line or single direction. Different cities moved back and forth between the hoplite/pike-phalanx/thureophoroi foundation, depending on their fortunes against their rivals.

Opinions vary: if this book is any indication, several states did indeed make a complete shift towards the thureophoroi model (p. 186-188) (in all fairness, Sekunda's theses have been criticised as being fanciful as far as I have seen, though he is not the author of this piece). But keep in mind that this wouldn't be solely about the Greeks. Indeed, this would be about the Romans and the Carthaginians as well. Also, where did I claim it was out of Roman influence?

[QuintusSertorius]

Sorry, I was responding to Roma_Vitrix's point there (on Roman influence), it wasn't clear from my lack of quoting anyone.

Indeed, this wasn't just about Greeks - yo-yo-ing around was a Greek thing. I get the impression in Anatolia and eastwards, they went Thureophoroi and stayed there. Ultimately, it's an efficient model for soldiers who do more garrison/raiding/patrolling duties than fighting pitched battles. It also lines up more easily with other native patterns.

We don't model that shifting about in Hellas just because it would be prohibitively complicated, not to mention that it would mess with the AI. Every time the paradigm shifted, you'd have an event_counter zero-ing the recruitment pools of the affected units.

[Kranos]

well Bosphoros just began to be my favorite faction

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1KE9CcIfbKIagSaCKU9Fy6hCSxrGliY04/view?usp=sharing

[QuintusSertorius]

Just beware, the Bosporitai Logades are a late unit, you'll be waiting until at least turn 201 before you can recruit them. Though by that time, you'll probably have all the provinces they can be recruited from.

[alex33]

Just beware, the Bosporitai Logades are a late unit, you'll be waiting until at least turn 201 before you can recruit them. Though by that time, you'll probably have all the provinces they can be recruited from.

What cities can they be recruitet from? + it would still be nice if you could post their historical background like with the chaldians =)
I think the folks on reddit liked the update btw. I think i will do that all the time in the future!

[QuintusSertorius]

Two updates on the feeds!

What cities can they be recruitet from? + it would still be nice if you could post their historical background like with the chaldians =)
I think the folks on reddit liked the update btw. I think i will do that all the time in the future!

A lot of the evidence is pictorial rather than textual for this unit, so I'll give you the description instead:

These men were hired and armed by the Bosporitai to serve as professional elite troops. Their defensive equipment is of superior quality, coupled by the weaponry of local traditions and the warrior ethos of the recruits, make these skirmishers an excellent versatile and shock unit. However alone these soldiers cannot deal with large numbers of cavalrymen in the open ground and are better employed as flanking or screening units, when not deployed as defenders of fortifications. Moreover loyalty and bravery from these men will be rewarded by land grants and citizenships, meaning that they are even more eager to come out victorious in engagements.

Historically around Lake Maiotis developed urban communities, connected to one another through trading and common political interests. These were mainly focused on keeping commercial monopolies and collaborate against local and nomadic tribes to ensure the protection of maritime hubs. From the 2nd century BC coin hoards, burials and epigraphy point towards a large hiring of foreign and mercenary troops by the Bosporan poleis. These men were professionals from the Hellenistic world or nomadic warriors enlisted and armed by the Bosporitai to serve as garrison and border units. Even later, during Pontic rule, federated and allied warriors were hired and paid by urban coinage produced for military purposes. The armament of these men was very much in touch with the latest Hellenistic developments in warfare and during the 1st century BC ancient authors even describe them as equipped in the "Roman manner". Contemporary finds of chainmail and later frescos in Bosporan burials seem to indicate indeed that this time of body armour had become common in the Kimmerios Bosporos. Corroborating these conclusions is also the drastic change in military equipment, which occurred from the second half of the 1st century AD, when rulers of Sauromatian origins took over the Bosporan urban communities and brought a much more nomadic oriented style of warfare.

Well armoured and armed, these men are arguably the heaviest infantry unit that can be found in the Northern Pontic Littoral.

[Rad]

Kartvelni Mehomni spot a horned helmet. What was used as a source? Horned helmets did exist in history, but they often mistakenly put in regions/cultures where they were not present. I am looking for places that they were present.

[wermez]

Rare find figurine from Kartvelian royal tombs near Roki tunnel.


https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/LmsAA...iTX/s-l300.jpg

[Roma_Victrix]

They do indeed... *shudder*



Javelin and sword.



One might argue it goes beyond the adoption of chainmail. I remember reading an old preview for the RTR VII mod (ah, found it!) which argued that the Hellenistic period saw a gradual moving away from the old hoplitic mode of fighting throughout the Mediterranean area and towards a new style that emphasised smaller units acting more independently; one that relied upon the combination of javelin and sword. I lack the expertise to judge whether that idea is accepted by the historical community, but if our changing rosters are an indication, there may certainly have been tendencies in that the direction (notice the spread of elongated shields among e.g. the Carthagian and Hellenistic, but also the Roman troops).

Yep, the thureos shield became widely used in the Hellenistic world after the Celtic invasions in the 270s BC.

The big influence on the evolution of Hellenistic armies wasn't the Romans, it was the Galatians over a century before them. They killed the king of Makedonia (even if Keravnos was a nutter) and broke phalanxes, that was a real shock to a system that had won an empire.

An interesting article on the changes is here, but it's worth noting that contrary to the way we portray it in EBII, it wasn't a straight line or single direction. Different cities moved back and forth between the hoplite/pike-phalanx/thureophoroi foundation, depending on their fortunes against their rivals.

I knew the Galatians would have obviously influenced the Greeks well before the Romans, but I also figured the success of the Polybian Roman legions in the Punic Wars would have had some sort of impact on the neighboring Greeks. No? None? Nothing? No influence at all? Even after the Roman victory at the Battle of Magnesia in 190 BC, against the Seleucids in Anatolia? That's decades before the Romans conquered all of Greece (in 146 BC). I would actually be shocked if the Romans had no impact on the Greek world between those two dates. Is there a scholar who argues that Roman military tactics, styles, and equipment were never borrowed by the Greeks? Ever?

[Cohors_Evocata]

Kartvelni Mehomni spot a horned helmet. What was used as a source? Horned helmets did exist in history, but they often mistakenly put in regions/cultures where they were not present. I am looking for places that they were present.

Local figurines from the region; Arjos will have the exact citation...

[NapoleonMaster]

I love the new update to the Hayastan goverments.

One question though,

Can I build 3 Imperial Seats?.

What does the Imperial capital provides?.

Now on to the new unit,

This is a replacement to the Georgian medium infantry, right?.

Also, horns, seriously?.

I would love to know the historical background of this new unit.

[QuintusSertorius]

I love the new update to the Hayastan goverments.

One question though,

Can I build 3 Imperial Seats?.

What does the Imperial capital provides?.

I'll leave the unit details to Arjos. The only thing I will says is that they're not a "replacement" for any EB1 unit, because EB1 is not an authoritative or suggestive source for what will be included in EBII.

You can only build one Imperial Seat - it was only ever intended that you could build one, it's a "second capital".

The Imperial Capital is an upgraded government for Armavir only, and gives better units and better infrastructure than the Seat of Power. It's analogous to the Imperial Seat, but better. It also removes the dissonance of building the Seat of Power, then abandoning it for the Imperial Seat as soon as it becomes available.

[NapoleonMaster]

You can only build one Imperial Seat - it was only ever intended that you could build one, it's a "second capital".

The Imperial Capital is an upgraded government for Armavir only, and gives better units and better infrastructure than the Seat of Power. It's analogous to the Imperial Seat, but better. It also removes the dissonance of building the Seat of Power, then abandoning it for the Imperial Seat as soon as it becomes available.

What about the Hellenistic factions?.

They get the "second" and "Third" capital.

Will you limit them to have a first and second capital ?

[QuintusSertorius]

What about the Hellenistic factions?.

They get the "second" and "Third" capital.

Will you limit them to have a first and second capital ?

What about them? Hayastan aren't a Hellenistic faction, different factions get different treatments.

[Rad]

Local figurines from the region; Arjos will have the exact citation...

Thanks. Arjos, you out there?

[alex33]

Two updates on the feeds!



A lot of the evidence is pictorial rather than textual for this unit, so I'll give you the description instead:

Cool read thx! I'd really love to see one of these frescos if you have access to some! I had a big smile yesterday when i saw a nabataean engraving with a thureos and an axe like the nabataean agema.
Hmm yeah I'd like to know the source of those horned helmets too! cool stuff will make armenia even more interessting