EB-Twitter updates Discussion

[Roma_Victrix]

Quintus is the one who can reply to your question of the stats. Regarding the other matters, these horsemen can't have iron helmets because of the only iron helmets (of La Tene typology) attested in the Iberian Peninsula belong to the non-Celtic Iberian area. However, you can expect better-armoured horsemen in the case of the late version. As the written sources say, they will have helmets with three plumes (bronze Montefortino) and apart from the armour of organic nature you have noted, a few of them will have chainmail armours.





Regarding this unit, I would suggest focusing the attention in a special dagger for a moment. It the so-called Monte Bernorio-type dagger. It was a beautiful weapon (that included silver and copper damascene) typical of the aristocrats but not too useful for fighting. The late version of this unit will show how this ineffective dagger was transformed into a useful deadly dagger. Probably, this process of transformation was due to the war against Rome and the influence of the Celtiberian Bidiscoidal-type dagger (the dagger that was transformed into the pugio by Romans).

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Definitely, Zarrr, Mathieu and wermez are making great work with the revamped units of the Iberian Peninsula.

Thanks for the reply and these excellent explanations as always. On that note, I once again love the new Iberian units in the feed, the Astur-Cantabrian Axemen. They look great! The dude on the bottom right: is that a dark tanned leather linothorax? The torcs and golden armband jewelry are a nice touch.

[Trarco]

Thanks for the reply and these excellent explanations as always. On that note, I once again love the new Iberian units in the feed, the Astur-Cantabrian Axemen. They look great! The dude on the bottom right: is that a dark tanned leather linothorax? The torcs and golden armband jewelry are a nice touch.

You are welcome. Yes, it's the famous linothorax mentioned by Strabo, it's the best we can add to a professional unit without using the chainmail armour that was very rare and scarce in the pre-Roman Iberian Peninsula. Some historians see some armours that may be Cantabrian in a coin and in a Roman monument but all of this is really uncertain, in this case, our inspiration is the generic Strabo's quote.

[Roma_Victrix]

If we know so little about ancient Iberian body armor, is that because the vast majority of it was most likely made out of perishable materials or are we just unlucky in terms of archaeological excavations versus elsewhere? I guess there's also the enormous scale of industry in the economic powerhouse that was the Roman Empire, able to pepper the continent with numerous surviving examples of lorica hamata chain-mail and even some lorica segmentata plate armor. The Iberian tribes and Celt-Iberian "Castro" culture towns didn't exactly have as much material wealth or the ability to put as many men into the field as late Republican Roman armies and certainly not Principate era ones. I'm just glad that we know anything at all, especially about helmets as you've demonstrated.

[Rad]

I haven't had a chance to read on the subject. Does Strabo specifically use the word "linothorax" when talking about Iberian armor?

[Roma_Victrix]

I haven't had a chance to read on the subject. Does Strabo specifically use the word "linothorax" when talking about Iberian armor?

Either that or he called it a no good poopoo stinky barbarian tacky leather vest jacket unsuitable for Greeks and Romans.

I don't own a copy of Strabo, only Livy and Polybius, so I cannot say for sure. I did a pointed Google search for this with "site:edu", and "strabo iberian linothorax", but I was only able to come up with a master's thesis from the University of Auckland, Ante bella punica: Western Mediterranean Military Development 350-264 BC, by a postgraduate student Alastair Richard Lumsden. Not extremely helpful, and while his thesis does frequently mention the linothorax, he seems to only mention Iberian & Celtiberian similarities to other cultures in the Western Mediterranean in regards to their shared missile weaponry tactics and generally similar equipment but with it being heterogeneous instead of uniform across an entire army.

From page 126:

Finally, evidence strongly indicates that swords were secondary weapons, which further
suggests that melee combat was not the primary aim in western Mediterranean armies.
Indeed, when facing enemies who were primarily armed with javelins and spears, soldiers
wielding swords would have been severely disadvantaged. Consequently, the congruencies
within the archaeological evidence pertaining to Celtic, Celtiberian, Iberian, Italic, and North
African soldiers which has been examined throughout this thesis, strongly suggests that
warfare in the western Mediterranean between 350-264 was primarily fought between
similarly equipped, but heterogeneous armies who engaged each other with common
tactics in what was primarily missile based skirmish orientated warfare.

[Rad]

"Finally, evidence strongly indicates that swords were secondary weapons, which further
suggests that melee combat was not the primary aim in western Mediterranean armies."

He's right about swords being secondary weapons for most fighters who had them, but methinks that he draws the wrong conclusion out of it. Melee combat was primary, but it was conducted with spears first and foremost.

[Roma_Victrix]

"Finally, evidence strongly indicates that swords were secondary weapons, which further
suggests that melee combat was not the primary aim in western Mediterranean armies."

He's right about swords being secondary weapons for most fighters who had them, but methinks that he draws the wrong conclusion out of it. Melee combat was primary, but it was conducted with spears first and foremost.

Exactly. Opposing armies didn't just sit around chucking javelins at each other all day. Again, this is some postgrad student's master's thesis, so not vetted material from a journal publication. To be fair to him, though, he mentions the use of spears at length in other parts of the paper.

In either case I can't find Strabo's work at all. Does anyone have a full online primary source for him, translated or not?

[Trarco]

If we know so little about ancient Iberian body armor, is that because the vast majority of it was most likely made out of perishable materials or are we just unlucky in terms of archaeological excavations versus elsewhere?

Because it was made out of perishable materials. The archaeological results of the Iberian peoples are very successful. We know more than 600 falcatas, have detailed typologies to organize several elements of the panoply such as handles of shields, antennae swords or daggers and can understand the evolution of the Iberian panoply relatively well (it's not the same the early panoply than the mature one or the reformed/late one). Iberians developed a complex sculpture since early times, so we can know some of these organic materials such as the helmets and even maybe something similar to the Strabo's linothorax (actually, it comes from a Turdetanian context). Examples:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Then, we have the (in)famous Iberian pottery. It's difficult to understand it, for example all we know the case of the "scale armours". In EBII and following Quesada, we are going to reenact them as textile quilted armours.

The Iberian tribes and Celt-Iberian "Castro" culture towns didn't exactly have as much material wealth or the ability to put as many men into the field as late Republican Roman armies and certainly not Principate era ones. I'm just glad that we know anything at all, especially about helmets as you've demonstrated.

The Castro culture and the Celtiberian culture are not the same things

You are right, Romans had much more human potential, but the confederations of Celtiberian city-states were able to gather huge armies with an important proportion of horsemen (confirmed by both archaeology and written sources).

Yeah, you are totally right, unlike in the case of the Iberian panoply, the other panoplies of the Iberian Peninsula are poorly known. We know very well the offensive panoply of the Celtiberians although the defensive one is worst known. As opposed to other areas of the Iberian Peninsula, such as those once inhabited by the Celtiberians and Iberians, not much is known about the weaponry used by the ancient inhabitants of the Atlantic coast: a lack of preserved necropoleis and the acidity and the humidity of the soil have not left us much archaeological evidence. Our only recourse to establish the basic elements of the Lusitanian panoply is hence to refer to the writings of Diodorus and Strabo, combined with some of the later rock engravings in the valley of Côa and, as a last resort, the preserved statues of Galaico-Lusitanian warriors. That said, the Vettonians appear as Lusitanians' allies (or maybe even forming part of them) in the written sources and we know their main necropoleis relatively well.

I haven't had a chance to read on the subject. Does Strabo specifically use the word "linothorax" when talking about Iberian armor?

In either case I can't find Strabo's work at all. Does anyone have a full online primary source for him, translated or not?

The quote is Strabo III, 3, 6. It uses specialized words and some historians think that his source might be Polybius.

[Rad]

Something?

[Trarco]

Yes, the production of units (and other projects) continue, the thing is that the EB Scribus is a bit inactive right now.

[Rad]

We need to get him back! Assemble the A-Team!







I couldn't let the thread stay in the 2nd page, now could I?

[Marvzilla]

Just saw them, I forgot what group they are, what are the Asanan Riders supposed to represent ?

Also like most of the new steppe units they suffer from Playmobile Hand Syndrome.

[Rad]

Well done lads! Well done! Keep it coming!

[Jervaj]

Wow! A month of hiatus but so many previews at once! For been a aptch this update is gonna be abig when it comes to units, even if a lot are reworks/late versions of already existing units.


Great job!

[Lusitanio]

Why is no one talking about the new awesome Carthaginian temple?

[torf]

Carthage isn't one of my favorite factions, but it's really an awesome work. When, I take another city, I like to travel a little inside of it.

In a french forum (Mundus Bellicus), someone was even surprised that the team make this awesome work for the inner part of a building.

When all thoses carthaginian communauty will be finished, it will be a great thing.

[charlieh]

That interior shot is most atmospheric. I don't know how they pull it off with such an old graphics engine.

[Lusitanio]

Carthage isn't one of my favorite factions, but it's really an awesome work. When, I take another city, I like to travel a little inside of it.

In a french forum (Mundus Bellicus), someone was even surprised that the team make this awesome work for the inner part of a building.

When all thoses carthaginian communauty will be finished, it will be a great thing.

Just took a look at that forum, nice work you did there promoting EBII work, very good indeed

That interior shot is most atmospheric. I don't know how they pull it off with such an old graphics engine.

That's all Ariovistus magic

[torf]

Just took a look at that forum, nice work you did there promoting EBII work, very good indeed

Thanks. This forum isn't as active as TWC, but there are some peoples that follow it.

[qwertykov]

Why is no one talking about the new awesome Carthaginian temple?

any pics? lol