EB-Twitter updates Discussion

[tomySVK]

really it was polybius? I thought i read livy in the book of bar kochva. I'm still not sold on those imitation legions it still could be thorakitai. A seperate late heavy sword unit would be okay but i think they would need their own modell (like the pontic thorakitai in eb 1) as i dont think a roman levy legion unit would really fit. Especially if there should be no romans when the reform would fire. But hey thats just my opinion^^

Yes it was Polybios. I have a copy of Polybios and Bar-Kochva books at home. Polybios wrote about thorakitai in army of Antiochos III and next he wrote about 5000 troops in prime of their lives armed in Roman fashion in army of Antiochos IV.

[romanius24]

I think Livy described another parade of Antiochus III and Hannibal.

[tomySVK]

I think Livy described another parade of Antiochus III and Hannibal.

I think you are right, probably the parade before the battle of Magnesia in Asia Minor.

[alex33]

Yes it was Polybios. I have a copy of Polybios and Bar-Kochva books at home. Polybios wrote about thorakitai in army of Antiochos III and next he wrote about 5000 troops in prime of their lives armed in Roman fashion in army of Antiochos IV.

Can you give me the page in Bar Kochva's book? I found the "prime of their life" part regarding the Argyraspides but nothing about the "Roman" Troops. Most of what i know about those troops is Livy's stuff.^^

[Roma_Victrix]

Yes, dissapointed so many fans thought the Hastati have Corniculum and masked/bearded helmets.
It was the Evocati all day long.

We will provide an in-depth preview of the Marian Reform, so be tuned.

Just out of curiosity, what is the historical evidence for soldiers wearing the corniculum (i.e. horns)? Is it purely pictorial (i.e. from Roman paintings and sculptures) or is there a textual basis for it? Do well-known Roman historians like Tacitus mention them by name and explicitly say they were used to adorn the helmets of evocati or legionaries? I'm also curious about the sources used for the "carnunos" horn-helmed Celtic warriors of Gaul (if I remember correctly that was a unit in the first EB).

[Moros]

The Glanum monument is an example where we can see a helmet adorned with horns.

[Roma_Victrix]

The Glanum monument is an example where we can see a helmet adorned with horns.

Wow! Your suggestion appears to be correct, if this sculpted relief from Glanum's Mausoleum of the Julii (40 BC) is anything to go by:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Mind you, that's a cavalry battle, so it doesnt include any evocati or legionaries, naturally, so should it be interpreted as auxiliaries wearing horned helmets here? The cavalrymen here certainly don't look "Gallic" in their arms and armaments, though; they look like Roman equites. Did the Romans have any Italic cavalry auxiliaries in the late 1st century BC?

[QuintusSertorius]

Did the Romans have any Italic cavalry auxiliaries in the late 1st century BC?

Nope, all cavalry came from the provinces by then.

[Roma_Victrix]

Nope, all cavalry came from the provinces by then.

That's what I thought, therefore the "carniculum" decoration on helmets was a purely Celtic import from Gaul and not worn by Roman infantry, no? Do depictions of carniculum only exist showing cavalry wearing them, not infantry?

[alin]

That's what I thought, therefore the "carniculum" decoration on helmets was a purely Celtic import from Gaul and not worn by Roman infantry, no? Do depictions of carniculum only exist showing cavalry wearing them, not infantry?

It's corniculum and also has volutes:




It's an Agen-Port style helmet with bearded cheekpieces.

More pics:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[alex33]

Looks very cool. I like the idea to see stuff you would normally not really associate with romans. Gives them much more flavour

Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius

As an aside, in the same thread there's some commentary about a Nabataen Hellenistic foot guard unit - think heavy hoplites with javelins and axes, instead of spears and swords. Badass. Not sure when we'll see them, though.

Reading this again after reading some nabatean history. Will those guys be in EB 2 now? like not in the autumn release of course but somewhere down the road? this will be one of my favourite upcoming units in the mod along with the nabatean hetairoi^^ (the eb team made me a real nabatean fan. I guess i have to make a trip to jordan next year XD)

I think my old post kinda went unnoticed under the whole marian hype (would could blame you cause it looks freaking amazing!!)

Also before i forget thx holycrusader for the video! Love your work!

[Roma_Victrix]

It's corniculum and also has volutes:




It's an Agen-Port style helmet with bearded cheekpieces.

More pics:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Awesome! Where is that sculpted relief from? Was that carved by a Gallic artist? It doesn't look like typical Roman art, with its frontality instead of profile view of the face in sculpted relief. The Agen-Port style helmet used by the Romans originted in Gaul at any rate. In either case, that is a fantastic job on the helmet design for the evocati.

[QuintusSertorius]

Reading this again after reading some nabatean history. Will those guys be in EB 2 now? like not in the autumn release of course but somewhere down the road? this will be one of my favourite upcoming units in the mod along with the nabatean hetairoi^^ (the eb team made me a real nabatean fan. I guess i have to make a trip to jordan next year XD)

Yes, the Nabataean foot guards will be in EBII. They're not the only badass axemen on the Arabian roster, another is the "Arabian Thureophoroi" - thureos-wielding line troops with javelin and axe. Much more solid than the Bedouin Axemen you're about to see a lot of in the autumn release. Plus a Sabaen guard unit and a settled Bedouin unit too. The Arabian roster is going to get a lot of ap as it develops.

[alin]

Awesome! Where is that sculpted relief from? Was that carved by a Gallic artist? It doesn't look like typical Roman art, with its frontality instead of profile view of the face in sculpted relief. The Agen-Port style helmet used by the Romans originted in Gaul at any rate. In either case, that is a fantastic job on the helmet design for the evocati.

You'll have to contact paullus for more info on that.
However as you know they were responsible for their own equipment and that's why you'll see such diversity.
So I presume the same, it's of gallic origin and hereyou can see this Corinthian one used by them:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[alex33]

Yes, the Nabataean foot guards will be in EBII. They're not the only badass axemen on the Arabian roster, another is the "Arabian Thureophoroi" - thureos-wielding line troops with javelin and axe. Much more solid than the Bedouin Axemen you're about to see a lot of in the autumn release. Plus a Sabaen guard unit and a settled Bedouin unit too. The Arabian roster is going to get a lot of ap as it develops.

Thx QS! Sounds amazing. Those Sabean guards are also axe wielding? thats cool. Can't wait to play Nabatea and Saba once they get those amazing units

[Nimor]

Yes, the Nabataean foot guards will be in EBII. They're not the only badass axemen on the Arabian roster, another is the "Arabian Thureophoroi" - thureos-wielding line troops with javelin and axe. Much more solid than the Bedouin Axemen you're about to see a lot of in the autumn release. Plus a Sabaen guard unit and a settled Bedouin unit too. The Arabian roster is going to get a lot of ap as it develops.

While speaking about axes, will the Skythian Logades also get those? After all, the only Skythian non-missile infanterie in EB I (and maybe EB II?) were axemen.

hurray for more cultural-fusion-units.

[tomySVK]

Can you give me the page in Bar Kochva's book? I found the "prime of their life" part regarding the Argyraspides but nothing about the "Roman" Troops. Most of what i know about those troops is Livy's stuff.^^

Polybios about thorakitai in Seleukid army during the eastern anabasis of Antiochos III (Book X, 29, 5-6):
„Having made this plan he gave the command of the first division to Diogenes, entrusting him with archers and slingers and those of the mountaineers who were expert in throwing javelins and stones, who also, whenever time and place called for it, fought singly and rendered most useful service on difficult ground. After these he placed about two thousand Cretans armed with bucklers under the command of Polyxenidas of Rhodes, and lastly the light troops armed with breastplate and shield under Nicomedes of Cos and Nicolaus the Aetolian.“

So the thorakitai are described as light troops (most probably as compared to heavy Macedonian phalanx) with breastplate (thorax) and shields (most probably thureos shields) used several years before Antiochos´ Roman war.

Polybios about infantry armed in Roman fashion in Seleukid army during the reign of Antiochos IV at Daphne parade (Book XXX, 25, 1-3):

„This same king when he heard of the games celebrated in Macedonia by Aemilius Paullus the Roman general, ambitious of surpassing Paullus in magnificence sent out embassies and sacred missions to the towns to announce the games he was about to give at Daphne, so that people in Greece were very eager to visit Antioch then. The festival opened with a procession composed as follows: It was headed by five thousand men in the prime of life armed after the Roman fashion and wearing breastplates of chain-armour.“

B. Bar-Kochva discuss this passage in The Seleucid Army on page 60.

1 Maccabe about the Seleukid army at the battle of Beth Zechariah during the reign of Antiochos V and regency of Lysias (6, 33 - 39):

„ Early in the morning the king rose and took his army by a forced march along the road to Beth-zechariah, and his troops made ready for battle and sounded their trumpets. They showed the elephants the juice of grapes and mulberries, to arouse them for battle. And they distributed the beasts among the phalanxes; with each elephant they stationed a thousand men armed with coats of mail, and with brass helmets on their heads; and five hundred picked horsemen were assigned to each beast. These took their position beforehand wherever the beast was; wherever it went they went with it, and they never left it. And upon the elephants were wooden towers, strong and covered; they were fastened upon each beast by special harness, and upon each were four armed men who fought from there, and also its Indian driver. The rest of the horsemen were stationed on either side, on the two flanks of the army, to harass the enemy while being themselves protected by the phalanxes. When the sun shone upon the shields of gold and brass, the hills were ablaze with them and gleamed like flaming torches. “

B. Bar-Kochva discuss this passage in The Seleucid Army on pages 180 – 183, in Judas Maccabaeus on pages 128, 313 - 316.

And also after a little search I found the picture (see the attachment) of Hellenistic terracotta found in ancient city Nippur, now in Pennsylvania museum (during Seleukid period the ancient city was turned into a fortress), which is located in southern Babylonia (Antiochos IV with his army is attested in this region during his eastern anabasis). The terracotta most probably is model of infantryman from Hellenistic period with thureos shield with sword in the right side as Roman soldiers were using (the Hellenistic soldiers are shown to were their swords on left side). In Republic era the Roman army didn´t campaign in this area. The first Roman army which campaigned there was under the emperor Trajanus during early 2-nd century AD. As the thorakitai were a Hellenistic development based on confrontation with Celtic/Galatian warriors, so I think posted written ancient sources and this terracotta may be describing the Seleukid infantry unit armed in Roman fashion.

[jim600]

Message for Roma Victorix.

Regarding your recent post no. 2612 regarding Corniculum - horns.

Where did you get the picture from ?- which book as I would like to get a copy.

The illustration style is very similar to Arms and Armour of the Imperial Roman Soldier 112BC-192AD by Raffaele D`Amato.

[tomySVK]

Message for Roma Victorix.

Regarding your recent post no. 2612 regarding Corniculum - horns.

Where did you get the picture from ?- which book as I would like to get a copy.

The illustration style is very similar to Arms and Armour of the Imperial Roman Soldier 112BC-192AD by Raffaele D`Amato.

It´s made by Graham Sumner, but I can´t remember the name of the book.

[alex33]

Polybios about thorakitai in Seleukid army during the eastern anabasis of Antiochos III (Book X, 29, 5-6):
„Having made this plan he gave the command of the first division to Diogenes, entrusting him with archers and slingers and those of the mountaineers who were expert in throwing javelins and stones, who also, whenever time and place called for it, fought singly and rendered most useful service on difficult ground. After these he placed about two thousand Cretans armed with bucklers under the command of Polyxenidas of Rhodes, and lastly the light troops armed with breastplate and shield under Nicomedes of Cos and Nicolaus the Aetolian.“

So the thorakitai are described as light troops (most probably as compared to heavy Macedonian phalanx) with breastplate (thorax) and shields (most probably thureos shields) used several years before Antiochos´ Roman war.

Polybios about infantry armed in Roman fashion in Seleukid army during the reign of Antiochos IV at Daphne parade (Book XXX, 25, 1-3):

„This same king when he heard of the games celebrated in Macedonia by Aemilius Paullus the Roman general, ambitious of surpassing Paullus in magnificence sent out embassies and sacred missions to the towns to announce the games he was about to give at Daphne, so that people in Greece were very eager to visit Antioch then. The festival opened with a procession composed as follows: It was headed by five thousand men in the prime of life armed after the Roman fashion and wearing breastplates of chain-armour.“

B. Bar-Kochva discuss this passage in The Seleucid Army on page 60.

1 Maccabe about the Seleukid army at the battle of Beth Zechariah during the reign of Antiochos V and regency of Lysias (6, 33 - 39):

„ Early in the morning the king rose and took his army by a forced march along the road to Beth-zechariah, and his troops made ready for battle and sounded their trumpets. They showed the elephants the juice of grapes and mulberries, to arouse them for battle. And they distributed the beasts among the phalanxes; with each elephant they stationed a thousand men armed with coats of mail, and with brass helmets on their heads; and five hundred picked horsemen were assigned to each beast. These took their position beforehand wherever the beast was; wherever it went they went with it, and they never left it. And upon the elephants were wooden towers, strong and covered; they were fastened upon each beast by special harness, and upon each were four armed men who fought from there, and also its Indian driver. The rest of the horsemen were stationed on either side, on the two flanks of the army, to harass the enemy while being themselves protected by the phalanxes. When the sun shone upon the shields of gold and brass, the hills were ablaze with them and gleamed like flaming torches. “

B. Bar-Kochva discuss this passage in The Seleucid Army on pages 180 – 183, in Judas Maccabaeus on pages 128, 313 - 316.

And also after a little search I found the picture (see the attachment) of Hellenistic terracotta found in ancient city Nippur, now in Pennsylvania museum (during Seleukid period the ancient city was turned into a fortress), which is located in southern Babylonia (Antiochos IV with his army is attested in this region during his eastern anabasis). The terracotta most probably is model of infantryman from Hellenistic period with thureos shield with sword in the right side as Roman soldiers were using (the Hellenistic soldiers are shown to were their swords on left side). In Republic era the Roman army didn´t campaign in this area. The first Roman army which campaigned there was under the emperor Trajanus during early 2-nd century AD. As the thorakitai were a Hellenistic development based on confrontation with Celtic/Galatian warriors, so I think posted written ancient sources and this terracotta may be describing the Seleukid infantry unit armed in Roman fashion.

Cool read thx for that man! I think describing troops armed in the roman fashion means "heavy armour sword and javs" which is kinda a natural evolution of troops back then. first influenced by celts and then romans. I have nothing against "roman fashion" I think the thing that mostly annoys me is when people call them imitation legionaries cause that kinda indicated that the are organised in the way roman legions are. Using the same equipment doesn't make one a legionnaire. I think the best way to represent such a unit in EB 2 would be to have a heavier version of the already existing machairaphoroi like the old pontic thorakitai or even rome 2's Thorax swordsmen (ugh) it would be the best compromise as they could exist in a theoretical game world where the romans were destroyed at an earlier turn. As the basis for both heavy armoured infantry and sword armed infantry would already be there. But thats the teams decision anyway hahahaa