Diplomacy too hard?

[Ahlerich]

Headline says it.

i tried to get a trade agreement with france, venice and milan.

i offered 20000 cash + 20000 in 10 rates a 2000 and it has been denied

all they denied. i only wanted a trade agreement. i dont like easy dimplomacy where u have tradeagreements with all and without having to pay for it but i personally think the way it is now in the newer release - thats too hard. how much do i need to pay to get a trade agreement? i just made a poll to see what others think.
if somebody finds it not too hard it would be nice to explain why not because its beyond my understanding. i understand the excitement of a challange - having stale, repetetive diplomacy that cant be influenced much - i dont see the enjoyment there.

[missu]

when did you try that and with which faction?

in my experience, it is impossible to get trade rights with certain factions- for example scotland with england. if you are playing hre, that sounds reasonable. they will be at war with you anyways... in a few turns.
i find it easy to get trade rights within the first few turns, then it gets hard until you build up good reputation, and then it gets easy again. the hardest thing is always to get allied to the pope and that he accepts permanent tribute (250 for 500 turns).

and it was impossible for me to get military access, even when i gifted three regions (apparently koj didn't want to own egypt, ts!)

[Ahlerich]

i tried that with hre and its true trade with hungary is easy to get and i think with the flemish too.
danmark is hard but possible and the rest of the neighbours seems impossible. well i didnt try towns but that would be a bit silly anyways

why shouldnt hre have th eoption to trade with venice and milan? especially sice so much of the hre grew in southern germany/tirol just because of that?

[Taiji]

I like having neighbours with whom diplomacy by itself will not work. Any easier than it currently is would be too easy for me.

[ivanhoex]

i bought a stone castle from lit. (the one below novgorod, in caps so it will become citadel... cant remember the name right now)

i didnt want them to get pissed with me (long time allies) so attacking was not an option and the position and power of the castle was making me nervous.

got it for 65.000fl. they had no chance to act offended...

four years later, dark ages develope and lit declares war on me... lol.
took novgorod from them till then...
i easily deffend my lands (mostly on the field, they dont get too close to my cities and when they do, they realize that sieging is a no-go..
but their continuous stream of men is not allowing me to attack them in return... (i have also to deffend east from mongol raids)


despite being same religion and having been allies till dark age, after darks are over biz wont be my ally again. and we have NEVER been in war.
in fact, alliance got broken because i stupidly wanted to improve relations by giving them map information.
they answered saying "no, and we dont like our allyhood so bye"...

to be sure, i am not offering them anything but alliance and map info. i have way more power than them.
darn it... bad luck...


also, half my trade treaties i got by letting them come to me, normally when i am asking for it i have to sweeten the agreement with 5000fl, but agreeing to a trade-treaty is just free

[Ahlerich]

lol, money well spent ,-) at least you supported your former allies war effort

I like having neighbours with whom diplomacy by itself will not work. Any easier than it currently is would be too easy for me.

funny. it bugs me to have faction around that i am not in war with that dont want to trade with me no matter what. also bugs me when my mission is to establish trade agreements and i simply cant. as hre it doesnt really play a big role as you have s of money from start in historical campaigns but it mainly bugs me that i am not in charge of my game i guess.

[Kjertesvein]

hehe, you seem to allways end up with morpheus law lol

Any way, I think it should be though and cold diplomacy between some factions.

Turks & Moors/christian
England/everyone except Flemish
Hungary/Byzantine

But there should also be factions with very good relations like

Poland/Hungary ( It seem like this is THE ONLY alliance that works eventho they live right next to each other).

This should in my opinion also be said to:
HRR/teutonic order
Jerusalem/Armenian/Mongol
etc.

[danielc]

Yes, diplomacy is over the top now. In my campaign I have both the King, and faction heir married to German princesses, and have add perfect relations with HRE for a long-time, all of a sudden, they attacked for no reason, so now I have to go to war with them, without really wanting to.

[Xtiaan72]

Sometimes you can offer too much! I've found it a challenge but not impossible. Maps and a little cash have been working well for me. The only one I had a hard time getting as Venice was Milan....But they declared war on me a few turns later... I think if a faction is preparing for war against you that they are almost impossible to get....But those trade rights would be useless anyway!

[Taiji]

Actually I have annoying situation of peace in my venice campaign. I have abysmal relations with everyone except the pope and france but only byz is attacking me, everyone else is on a crusade to paris which is lasting forever since most factions have since made peace with france and are just lurking around paris for street cred. Booooring. But still, perfect campaign so far, it's just my ally is taking the heat off me big-time

No I didn't call the crusade in the first place! Honestly, I'm the 'saintly ruler' type!...

[BamaToon]

Try playing as the Desert Tribes. Even the other Muslim factions hate you. I've been trying to get trade rights with both the Turks and the Egyptians, but they both want outrageous sums of money that I'm not paying.

I HATE it when I get a mission to "establish relations with (insert faction name here)." Forget about the Christian factions. Even when you offer them money, they want nothing to do with you.

[Taiji]

How to establish relations:

Give map, offer attack on faction: rebels.

Done .... well sometimes

[BamaToon]

How to establish relations:

Give map, offer attack on faction: rebels.

Done .... well sometimes

I don't like to give them my map information since that usually invites them to attack you. I usually just try to get trade rights whenever I get an "Establish Relations" mission, or ask for their map information and allow them to name a price.

[Taiji]

The thing is that offering attack on the rebels is establishing relations and giving them map information makes them more likely to accept. If they accept it they'll like it and they'll like it even more when you kill some rebels within the next 15 turns. Do this enough and they will offer trade rights, later on when there's not so much rebels and you're strong enough anyway just attack their enemies.

[BamaToon]

The thing is that offering attack on the rebels is establishing relations and giving them map information makes them more likely to accept. If they accept it they'll like it and they'll like it even more when you kill some rebels within the next 15 turns. Do this enough and they will offer trade rights, later on when there's not so much rebels and you're strong enough anyway just attack their enemies.

Well I'll have to try that next time I get one of those missions. Thanks for the tip.

[Xtiaan72]

The thing is that offering attack on the rebels is establishing relations and giving them map information makes them more likely to accept. If they accept it they'll like it and they'll like it even more when you kill some rebels within the next 15 turns. Do this enough and they will offer trade rights, later on when there's not so much rebels and you're strong enough anyway just attack their enemies.

Yes...Very good...destined for the guide me thinks!

[ivanhoex]

The thing is that offering attack on the rebels is establishing relations and giving them map information makes them more likely to accept. If they accept it they'll like it and they'll like it even more when you kill some rebels within the next 15 turns. Do this enough and they will offer trade rights, later on when there's not so much rebels and you're strong enough anyway just attack their enemies.

yep that works.

until the dark ages thats it.. i got strong allies till then, but now i cannot find a way to get them accept a crude -no flavoring- alliance

[BamaToon]

yep that works.

until the dark ages thats it.. i got strong allies till then, but now i cannot find a way to get them accept a crude -no flavoring- alliance

I only use princesses to form marriage alliances rather than traditional diplomat alliances. The CPU seems more reluctant to break a marriage alliance.

[Kjertesvein]

Why are Poland and Hungary alliance sooo extremly strong? I never figuerd out that one, They stick like glue, but never hostile.

[Ahlerich]

i offered map as well on top of that money and still no trade with venice, milan and france unfortunately. i will try the atatck rebel thing though.

i can confirm for teutonic order and hre it is as well very easy to get trade with hungary. also i dont think i offered them too much money because i tried for the whole campaign to get traderights.

tried little money like 1000 + map in the beginning and then i raised my offer every couple turns for a bit and now i am at the point (40000) where i stopt trying and raising my money.

now if mutual enemies only get trade very hard i think would be a cool feature. like teutonic order and lithuania, jerusalem and egypt, etc
christians with pagans or muslims, etc i still think beeing able as player to chose who to trade with should be possible - not always easy, not always cheap - but possible. i often play hre and also like playing peacefully only retaliating not attacking. since i cant get trade on my borders it is always tempting and reasonable to take out milan and venice first. it is easy and then my borders are with sicily and rome who acually wanna trade with me. problem is each campaign is the same like that. well i guess i could take venice and then offer venice to venice for peace and trade - kinda rediculous way to get a trade agreement though. in 6.0 i remember it beeing hard as well geting peace after the dark ages with all the factions that declare war again. it was hard and a slow and expensive process - it was good that way imo. the way it is now takes too many options of the player i think.