Armies disappearing when faction loses provinces.

[Razor]

The title says it all. Why do the enemy armies disppear when all of their provinces are captured?

In my campaign with France I was able to just walk in the Cherokee provinces with my 5 fullstacks and parked them next to their region capitals. The Cherokee had quite a few armies and also too far away for them to take part in defending their cities once I decided to take them out. So, I turned against the Cherokee and after their provinces were captured their armies who were 'out in the field' were gone.
Doesn't this make it all a bit too easy? Why should the faction not be given an opportunity to recapture their suddenly captured provinces?

[aeoleron9]

Another post-war problem huh. IMO remaining troops should become faction rebels, like the kind that spawns when a captured region is in a rebellion.

[Razor]

Another post-war problem huh. IMO remaining troops should become faction rebels, like the kind that spawns when a captured region is in a rebellion.

Well isn't that what they are already? They're in the same position as a rebelling/(re)emergent faction with no provinces.

[Hellman109]

They should stay the nation till they lose all ground troops.

At that point they should turn pirate

[dippysea]

I agree. The Armies should not just disappear. They should at least become a rebellion force and all head back the the capital to re-take the region.

I also think the Ships should all become a rebellion force, or worse case become Pirates.

It is a waste of perfectly good armies / fleets just to make them disappear. It also makes taking the faction something to really think about. At the moment hitting the capital quickly wipes out a force. As long as a rebellion force is alive it should also regenerate losses automatically over time, as the rebellion draws locals in.

[Humble Warrior]

I don`t like it either. IN RTW and MTW2 something always went somewhere. If you defeated a faction, its armies always became rebels to be dealt with, some became mercs or some just disbaned. Most games do this. Gal Civ2 has all forces of a defeated Faction either join another Faction or go pirate. Armies of loser Nations don`t just vanish, though some may disband.

Yea, just another in the long line of bugs.

[J. Fishman]

Not really. Keep in mind that sustaining an army in the field involves a fairly large logistical train. Unlike marauders of the ancient world, it was longer really feasible to sustain an army in combat-capable condition merely by pillaging the countryside. Thus, an army deprived of this support quickly disperses when no one is paying their considerable upkeep.

[Razor]

Not really. Keep in mind that sustaining an army in the field involves a fairly large logistical train. Unlike marauders of the ancient world, it was longer really feasible to sustain an army in combat-capable condition merely by pillaging the countryside. Thus, an army deprived of this support quickly disperses when no one is paying their considerable upkeep.

Well actually it is. Because armies can sustain themselves by pillaging the countryside. Isn't that what Napoleon's Grande Armée was doing?
It's more likely that the armies should continue to exist under the same flag but then as a rebel faction.
Especially for factions like the Cherokee it doesn't make any sense that when there's no money to pay the troops they should disperse, because the native Americans don't work like that.

What if France has 2 full stack armies in the south and you launch a surprise attack and take Alsace Lorraine and France. I have to say that it's the fault of the diplomatic system of Empire because if you conquer a province you own it, not just occupy it. So the faction has no opportunity to surrender if their cities are taken and they're bogged down.

With this system Empire is using it would be reasonable to have an opportunity for the remaining troops to counter attack and retake the provinces, because Empire doesn't make a difference between occupation (in which a faction is still there but under military occupation of the enemy) and conquering/annexation (in which a faction is wiped out).

[Reiver]

I agree. The Armies should not just disappear. They should at least become a rebellion force and all head back the the capital to re-take the region.

That would be a fantastic feature. You take the capital, conquer the nation and kick over the hornets nest. I love the idea of the AI just throwing everything it has at me. none of this pussyfooting rubbish it does at the moment, just all out assault.

[eatme]

Perhaps another glitch..

The armies left out in the field when the provinces are captured should turn rebel, like they do in mtw2.

[Norpheus]

I agree with the OP.

That would be a fantastic feature. You take the capital, conquer the nation and kick over the hornets nest. I love the idea of the AI just throwing everything it has at me. none of this pussyfooting rubbish it does at the moment, just all out assault.

In other words you want the AL to be more stupid

[Reiver]

In other words you want the AL to be more stupid

Hardly, but if that's what it takes to provide a challenge then i'd rather have stupid Ai that attcks you vs. "smart Ai" that bypasses your undefended region capital to attack a madrassa.
Try reading for once, Norpheus, and put what i say into context before making asinine replies with condescending smilies.

[fluffstalker]

Hardly, but if that's what it takes to provide a challenge then i'd rather have stupid Ai that attcks you vs. "smart Ai" that bypasses your undefended region capital to attack a madrassa.
Try reading for once, Norpheus, and put what i say into context before making asinine replies with condescending smilies.

Quoted for Truth. Ive noticed that the AI seems to be coded to raid, farms and the like, which isnt bad in and of itself, but because of its limited impact on your economy and the fact that taking the region capital takes the whole region anyway, there really is no reason to raid when one can attack. The only issue is that the AI splits up its stacks and runs around.

I think that if one gets raided, one should suffer a larger penalty than it is now, proportionate to the number of units that raid you. Some units, like light cavalry should gain raiding bonuses. So if a full stack breezes through, the whole thing gets destroyed, and you have to rebuild it, then that would pressure me to defend. If one or two units go through, I think perhaps 2/3 or 3/4 damage, and you dont recieve any income from it whatsoever, instead of the only downside being that it looks messy on your campaign map.

[Norpheus]

Hardly, but if that's what it takes to provide a challenge then i'd rather have stupid Ai that attcks you vs. "smart Ai" that bypasses your undefended region capital to attack a madrassa.
Try reading for once, Norpheus, and put what i say into context before making asinine replies with condescending smilies.

Oh dont worry I am reading.

I dont agree with that an AI that always trows in everything it has to take the region would be challenging. Such a predcitable AI would be easily defeatable becuase of that its so prectable.

It would be much more challenging if it, aswell, could do other things, like move out of the region to take another one, or attack the invaders homelands or simply sit in the region and pillage it to try to force the army out.

Maybe you should think more about what a challenge really means before you post about how an AI should behave?

[Razor]

I agree with the OP.



In other words you want the AL to be more stupid

In the case of a faction that has no more provinces it would be a most logical result. Why letting you faction getting conquered if you still have full stack armies in the field and can lay siege to the enemy army in the city who would then be cut off from from any resources? It's a scenario in which an army could be forced into surrender (big army in a city with no supplies etc. Lots of troops need lots of food)

[Humble Warrior]

First time I wiped out the American Indian tribe was when I was having some difficulty subduing them. This was on VH so they just kept spamming more troops at their capital. So I made two large armies, popped one on a ship and sent it by sea while the other went by land as a decoy.

The huge Indian armies attacked my land army and while they did that, I invaded from sea with my other army, taking his capital from behind his back easily. I had won! However, my other army had been defeated and I expected to deal with massive rebel native armies, but they`d all vanished.

I was dissappointed. Nobody to mop up. Was just too easy.

[aeoleron9]

Oh come on Norpheus. It's the same thing if you let a region rebel and spawn a army loyal to the original faction. You basically want these rebels to ignore the region and start roaming like some sort of horde? I don't think it works that way in 18th century.

[aBitConfused]

I agree with the OP to a point... I agree the land forces shouldn't disappear immediately but equally they should only remain active for a limitted time (due to the already mentioned cost of upkeep of armies during that time) and should have a chance of disbanding or at least losing men to desertion.

I also think the continuing loyalty of the remaining troops to the disposed regeme or their enthusiasm for rebellion against the conquering forces should be linked to the happiness of the people in the diposed region. eg in my latest campaign in the later years due to my being a Republic with minimal taxation etc upon taking a region previously ruled by a monarchy the people became happy almost instantly suggesting that in that case perhaps the armis should disolve immediately because the people of the conquered nation were so happy at being released from tyranny!!

Also it would be cool if there was a chance that some of the remaining forces could give their loyalty to a nation that was allied to the now defeated old regeme.

Finally, I like the idea of surviving fleets having a chance to become pirates!

PS, apologies for the crap spelling and poor sentance construction but today was a nightmare at work and my brain is shutting down.....

[Frederf]

I agree with the OP to a point... I agree the land forces shouldn't disappear immediately but equally they should only remain active for a limited time

I think this is fair, a residual enemy threat that is only able to operate independent from central government supply and support for so long (1-3 turns?) before vanishing entirely. Perhaps every army that has no region suffers 25% desertion per turn until they are small enough to vanish entirely.

It's just too lame to bait the enemy stack to come out against a decoy force or time their attack against your region so you run over, kill their home capital, and they disappear like Michael J. Fox in the Polaroid from Back to the Future.

[Greyscout]

Well, I feel there is something a bit odd about entire stacks of natives vanishing into thin air when their last population capital gets sacked.

I can sorta see European armies dispersing, up to a point. Professional soldiers no longer have anyone paying them and militia would just want to go back to their civilian lives. However, I would still expect some sort of partisan faction to appear, taking up arms against the interlopers.

Natives in the new world and pirates, however should not have their existence tied to static capitals. I don't get why huge stacks of pirate ships simply vanish on the other side of the world when I take over a couple little towns in the Caribbean. (Ok, I also don't understand how pirates get fleets in numbers and firepower rivaling all European factions, but that's another matter.)