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  1. #1

    Default War in Yugoslavia (Croatia)

    + Google Video
    ERROR: If you can see this, then Google Video is down or you don't have Flash installed.


    I suggest watching the entire documentary if you have time but for the relevance of the war in Croatia. I'm not going to type anything on the subject as highlighted because then people don't watch the documentary and just argue on certain points asking for proof which is given in the documentary.

    The Invasion of Serbian Krajina
    by Greg Elich
    [Mr. Elich is a freelance scholar who has written extensively about Yugoslavia.]

    In early August 1995, the Croatian invasion of Serbian Krajina precipitated the worst refugee crisis of the Yugoslav civil war. Within days, more than two hundred thousand Serbs, virtually the entire population of Krajina, fled their homes, and 14,000 Serbian civilians lost them lives. According to a UN official "Almost the only people remaining were the dead and the dying." The Clinton administration's support for the invasion was an important factor in creating this nightmare.
    The previous month, Secretary of State Warren Christopher and German Foreign Minister Klaus Kinkel met with Croatian diplomat Miomir Zuzul in London. During this meeting, Christopher gave his approval for Croatian military action against Serbs in Bosnia and Krajina. Two days later, the U.S. ambassador to Croatia, Peter Galbraith, also approved Croatia's invasion plan. Stipe Mesic, a prominent Croatian politician, stated that Croatian President Franjo Tudjman "received the go-ahead from the United States. Tudjman can do only what the Americans allow him to do. Krajina is the reward for having accepted, under Washington's pressure, the federation between Croats and Muslims in Bosnia." Croatian assembly deputy Mate Mestrovic also claimed that the "United States gave us the green light to do whatever had to be done." (1)
    As Croatian troops launched their assault on August 4, U.S. NATO aircraft destroyed Serbian radar and anti-aircraft defenses. American EA-6B electronic warfare aircraft patrolled the air in support of the invasion. Krajina foreign affairs advisor Slobodan Jarcevic stated that NATO "completely led and coordinated the entire Croat offensive by first destroying radar and anti-aircraft batteries. What NATO did most for the Croatian Army was to jam communications between [Serb] military commands...." (2)
    Following the elimination of Serbiananti-aircraft defenses, Croatian planes carried out extensive attacks on Serbian towns and positions. The roads were clogged with refugees, and Croatian aircraft bombed and strafed refugee columns. Serbian refugees passing through the town of Sisak were met by a mob of Croatian extremists, who hurled rocks and concrete at them. A UN spokesman said, "The windows of almost every vehicle were smashed and almost every person was bleeding from being hit by some object." Serbian refugees were pulled from their vehicles and beaten. As fleeing Serbian civilians poured into Bosnia, a Red Cross representative in Banja Luka said, "I've never seen anything like it. People are arriving at a terrifying rate." Bosnian Muslim troops crossed the border and cut off Serbian escape routes. Trapped refugees were massacred as they were pounded by Croatian and Muslim artillery. Nearly 1,700 refugees simply vanished. While Croatian and Muslim troops burned Serbian villages, President Clinton expressed his understanding for the invasion, and Christopher said events "could work to our advantage." (3)
    The Croatian rampage through the region left a trail of devastation. Croatian special police units, operating under the Ministry of Internal Affairs, systematically looted abandoned Serbian villages. Everything of value - cars, stereos, televisions, furniture, farm animals - was plundered, and homes set afire. (4) A confidential European Union report stated that 73 percent of Serbian homes were destroyed. (5) Troops of the Croatian army also took part, and pro-Nazi graffiti could be seen on the walls of several burnt-out Serb buildings.(6)
    Massacres continued for several weeks after the fall of Krajina, and UN patrols discovered numerous fresh unmarked graves and bodies of murdered civilians. (7) The European Union report states, "Evidence of atrocities, an average of six corpses per day, continues to emerge. The corpses, some fresh, some decomposed, are mainly of old men. Many have been shot in the back of the head or had throats slit, others have been mutilated... Serb lands continue to be torched and looted." (8)
    Following a visit in the region a member of the Zagreb Helsinki Committee reported, "Virtually all Serb villages had been destroyed.... In a village near Knin, eleven bodies were found, some of them were massacred in such a way that it was not easy to see whether the body was male or female." (9)
    UN spokesman Chris Gunness noted that UN personnel continued to discover bodies, many of whom had been decapitated. (10) British journalist Robert Fisk reported the murder of elderly Serbs, many of whom were burned alive in their homes. He adds, "At Golubic, UN officers have found the decomposing remains of five people... the head of one of the victims was found 150 feet from his body. Another UN team, meanwhile is investigating the killing of a man and a woman in the same area after villagers described how the man's ears and nose had been mutilated." (11)
    After the fall of Krajina, Croatian chief of staff General Zvonimir Cervenko characterized Serbs as "medieval shepherds, troglodytes, destroyers of anything the culture of man has created." During a triumphalist train journey through Croatia and Krajina, Tudjman spoke at each railway station. To great applause, he announced, "There can be no return to the past, to the times when [Serbs] were spreading cancer in the heart of Croatia, a cancer that was destroying the Croatian national being." He then went on to speak of the "ignominious disappearance" of the Serbs from Krajina "so it is as if they have never lived here... They didn't even have time to take with them their filthy money or their filthy underwear!" American ambassador Peter Galbraith dismissed claims that Croatia had engaged in "ethnic cleansing," since he defined this term as something Serbs do. (12)
    U.S. representatives blocked Russian attempts to pass a UN Security Council resolution condemning the invasion. According to Croatian Foreign Minister Mate Granic, American officials gave advice on the conduct of the operation, and European and military experts and humanitarian aid workers reported shipments of U.S weapons to Croatia over the two months preceding the invasion. A French mercenary also witnessed the arrival of American and German weapons at a Croatian port, adding, "The best of the Croats' armaments were German- and American-made." The U.S. "directly or indirectly," says French intelligence analyst Pierre Hassner, "rearmed the Croats." Analysts at Jane's Information Group say that Croatian troops were seen wearing American uniforms and carrying U S. communications equipment. (13)
    The invasion of Krajina was preceded by a thorough CIA and DIA analysis of the region. (14) According to Balkan specialist Ivo Banac, this "tactical and intelligence support" was furnished to the Croatian Army at the beginning of its offensive. (15)
    In November 1994, the United States and Croatia signed a military agreement. Immediately afterward, U.S. intelligence agents set up an operations center on the Adriatic island of Brac, from which reconnaissance aircraft were launched. Two months earlier, the Pentagon contracted Military Professional Resources, Inc (MPRI) to train the Croatian military.(16) According to a Croatian officer, MPRI advisors "lecture us on tactics and big war operations on the level of brigades, which is why we needed them for Operation Storm when we took the Krajina." Croatian sources claim that U.S. satellite intelligence was furnished to the Croatian military. (17) Following the invasion of Krajina, the U.S. rewarded Croatia with an agreement "broadening existing cooperation" between MPRI and the Croatian military. (18) U.S. advisors assisted in the reorganization of the Croatian Army. Referring to this reorganization in an interview with the newspaper Vecernji List, Croatian General Tihomir Blaskic said, "We are building the foundations of our organization on the traditions of the Croatian home guard" - pro-Nazi troops in World War II. (19)
    It is worth examining the nature of what one UN official terms "America's newest ally." During World War II, Croatia was a Nazi puppet state in which the Croatian fascist Ustashe murdered as many as one million Serbs, Jews, and Roman (Gypsies). Disturbing signs emerged with the election of Franjo Tudjman to the Croatian presidency in 1990 Tudjman said, "I am glad my wife is neither Serb nor Jew," and wrote that accounts of the Holocaust were "exaggerated" and "one-sided." (20)
    Much of Tudjman's financial backing was provided by Ustashe émigrés and several Ustashe war criminals were invited to attend the first convention of Tudjman's political party, the Croatian Democratic Union. (21)
    Tudjman presented a medal to a former Ustashe commander living in Argentina, Ivo Rojnica. After Rojnica was quoted as saying, "Everything I did in 1941 I would do again," international pressure prevented Tudjman from appointing him to the post of ambassador to Argentina. When former Ustashe official Vinko Nikolic returned to Croatia, Tudjman appointed him to a seat in parliament. Upon former Ustashe officer Mate Sarlija's return to Croatia, he was personally welcomed at the airport by Defense Minister Gojko Susak, and subsequently given the post of general in the Croatian Army. (22) On November 4, 1996, thirteen former Ustashe officers were presented with medals and ranks in the Croatian Army. (23)
    Croatia adopted a new currency in 1994, the kuna, the same name as that used by the Ustashe state, and the new Croatian flag is a near-duplicate of the Ustashe flag. Streets and buildings have been renamed for Ustashe official Mile Budak, who signed the regime's anti-Semitic laws, and more than three thousand anti-fascist monuments have been demolished. In an open letter, the Croatian Jewish community protested the rehabilitation of the Ustashe state. In April 1994, the Croatian government demanded the removal of all "non-white" UN troops from its territory, claiming that "only first-world troops" understood Croatia's "problems." (24)
    On Croatian television in April 1996, Tudjman called for the return of the remains of Ante Pavelic, the leader of the Croatian pro-Nazi puppet state "After all, both reconciliation and recognition should be granted to those who deserve it," Tudjman said, adding, "We should recognize that Pavelic's ideas about the Croatian state were positive," but that Pavelic's only mistake was the murder of a few of his colleagues and nationalist allies. (25) Three months later, Tudjman said of the Serbs driven from Croatia "The fact that 90 percent of them left is their own problem... Naturally we are not going to allow them all to return." During the same speech, Tudjman referred to the pro-Nazi state as "a positive thing." (26)
    During its violent secession from Yugoslavia in 1991, Croatia expelled more than three hundred thousand Serbs, and Serbs were eliminated from ten towns and 183 villages. (27) In 1993, Helsinki Watch reported: "Since 1991 the Croatian authorities have blown up or razed ten thousand houses mostly of Serbs, but also houses of Croats. In some cases, they dynamited homes with the families inside." Thousands of Serbs have been evicted from their homes. Croatian human-rights activist Ivan Zvonimir Cicak says beatings, plundering, and arrests were the usual eviction methods. (28)
    Tomislav Mercep, until recently the advisor to the Interior minister and a member of Parliament, is a death-squad leader. Mercep's death squad murdered 2,500 Serbs in western Slavonia in 1991 and 1992, actions Mercep defends as "heroic deeds." (29) Death squad officer Miro Bajramovic's spectacular confession revealed details: "Nights were worst for [our prisoners]... burning prisoners with a flame, pouring vinegar over their wounds mostly on genitalia and on the eyes. Then there is that little induction field phone, you plug a Serb onto that... The most painful is to stick little pins under the nails and to connect to the three phase current; nothing remains of a man but ashes... After all, we knew they would all be killed, so it did not matter if we hurt him more today or tomorrow."
    "Mercep knew everything," Bajramovic claimed. "He told us several times: 'Tonight you have to clean all these .' By this he meant all the prisoners should be executed." (30)
    Sadly, the Clinton administration's embrace of Croatia follows a history of support for fascists when it suits American geopolitical interests: Chile's Augusto Pinochet, Indonesia's Suharto, Paraguay's Aifredo Stroessner, and a host of others. The consequences of this policy for the people affected have been devastating.
    http://www.emperors-clothes.com/arti...h/krajina.html

    Same basis as the other thread. Stay on topic about Croatia, not Bosnia or Kosovo.

    This topic really needs its own sub forum or something.
    "Mors Certa, Hora Incerta."

    "We are a brave people of a warrior race, descendants of the illustrious Romans, who made the world tremor. And in this way we will make it known to the whole world that we are true Romans and their descendants, and our name will never die and we will make proud the memories of our parents." ~ Despot Voda 1561

    "The emperor Trajan, after conquering this country, divided it among his soldiers and made it into a Roman colony, so that these Romanians are descendants, as it is said, of these ancient colonists, and they preserve the name of the Romans." ~ 1532, Francesco della Valle Secretary of Aloisio Gritti, a natural son to Doge

  2. #2

    Default Re: War in Yugoslavia (Croatia)

    Copy-paste from Bosnia thread that I got stranded. My apologies for that.

    ------------------

    Quote Originally Posted by Carpathian Wolf View Post
    And Vukovar was NOT leveled. That's a lie.


    You wouldn't call that leveled? Or are you not sure this is Vukovar?

  3. #3

    Default Re: War in Yugoslavia (Croatia)

    Actually yes. All of the above were strangers sitting somewhere thinking just like you and unlike me. I and everybody I know are just witnesses who were never called by these "officials". So, yeah, I am more relevant to this case than they are. And I'm telling you I had Serbian shells miss my house by less than 50 meters on more than one occassion. Denying that is saying I'm a liar.
    How can you say UN officials, soldiers and generals who were there were just sitting somewhere thinking like me and not you? I really doubt the Serb's military plans hinged on blowing up your house. We don't know the details. Nor are they relevant to the discussion.

    So now you have two maps for the same thing which are not the same. Make up your mind. And while you do notice that both maps show that Serb controlled areas were larger than Serb majority territories.
    I know, Serbs made some inroads in the fighting, but if you look at the map the Croats also took land that they were not the majority in. And later on in Krajina they wiped out the entire Serb population of Croatia in operations flash and storm.


    You wouldn't call that leveled? Or are you not sure this is Vukovar?

    P.S. Quote me and answer me in Croatia thread so we leave this one alone.
    Closer to leveled is Mostar.
    "Mors Certa, Hora Incerta."

    "We are a brave people of a warrior race, descendants of the illustrious Romans, who made the world tremor. And in this way we will make it known to the whole world that we are true Romans and their descendants, and our name will never die and we will make proud the memories of our parents." ~ Despot Voda 1561

    "The emperor Trajan, after conquering this country, divided it among his soldiers and made it into a Roman colony, so that these Romanians are descendants, as it is said, of these ancient colonists, and they preserve the name of the Romans." ~ 1532, Francesco della Valle Secretary of Aloisio Gritti, a natural son to Doge

  4. #4

    Default Re: War in Yugoslavia (Croatia)

    Quote Originally Posted by Carpathian Wolf View Post
    How can you say UN officials, soldiers and generals who were there were just sitting somewhere thinking like me and not you? I really doubt the Serb's military plans hinged on blowing up your house. We don't know the details. Nor are they relevant to the discussion.
    Because UN officials were protected observers. They got to go around and whine. We didn't, we had to sit in basements and wait till Serbian artillery stops firing while listening to the dead and wounded count on the radio.

    And you are being more and more offensive. Indeed, Serbs hardly aimed at my house...they simply aimed at the city (cause it worked so well with Vukovar, I guess). And if you don't know the details that doesn't mean that we don't. I can walk down my street and count all the places where granades hit. I can tell you how many relatives I have that were thrown out of their homes in "Serbian Krajina"...are those thing detailed enough? You think some UN bureucrat can do better?

    Quote Originally Posted by Carpathian Wolf View Post
    I know, Serbs made some inroads in the fighting, but if you look at the map the Croats also took land that they were not the majority in. And later on in Krajina they wiped out the entire Serb population of Croatia in operations flash and storm.
    Croats did not have to take any land. Borders of Croatia were clear. Besides, you don't seem to understand that all those maps show majorities only. Majority means 50%+1. Effectively, there were Croats in areas with Serb majorities and there were also Serbs outside those areas. This was not a matter of territory until Serbian road blockades in sping 1991. Only afterwards you get clean Serbian areas and the rest of Croatia (because Serbs around Ogulin for instance, never rebelled, nor did Hungarians, Slovaks, Italians...)

    And could you please explain what kind of inroad was attack on Dubrovnik? How does that fit into this idea that Serbs were merely defending themselves (and occassionally ethnicly cleansing Croatian villages in the proximity while making inroads)?

    As for wiping out Serbian population, here's an interesting document:



    Quote Originally Posted by Mile Martić, President of Republic of Serbian Krajina
    REPUBLIC OF SERB KRAJINA

    SUPREME DEFENCE COUNCIL

    Knin, 4th Aug 1995

    16.45 hrs

    No: 2-3113-1/95.


    Due to a newly created situation appearing from a large-scale aggression of the Republic of Croatia against the Republic of Serb Krajina and in spite of successful defence at the beginning, the greater part of North Dalmatia and the part of Lika are endangered. Having considered all these facts

    WE DECIDED

    1. To start evacuating population unfit to military service from the municipalities of Knin, Benkovac, Obrovac, Drniš and Gračac.

    2. Evacuation to be carried out according to the plan towards direction of Knin and furthermore via Otrić, and towards Srb and Lapac.

    3. UNPROFOR HQ Sector South Knin to be requested support.


    Knin, 4th Aug 1995

    Certified by Serb Army HQ dtd 4th Aug 1995 at 17.20 hrs

    under Reg. No. as above.

    P R E S I D E N T

    Mile Martić


    Quote Originally Posted by Carpathian Wolf View Post
    Closer to leveled is Mostar.
    Oh, so this is not leveled enough, it should be leveled more?

  5. #5

    Default Re: War in Yugoslavia (Croatia)

    Because UN officials were protected observers. They got to go around and whine. We didn't, we had to sit in basements and wait till Serbian artillery stops firing while listening to the dead and wounded count on the radio.

    And you are being more and more offensive. Indeed, Serbs hardly aimed at my house...they simply aimed at the city (cause it worked so well with Vukovar, I guess). And if you don't know the details that doesn't mean that we don't. I can walk down my street and count all the places where granades hit. I can tell you how many relatives I have that were thrown out of their homes in "Serbian Krajina"...are those thing detailed enough? You think some UN bureucrat can do better?
    Maybe you should have told the Croatian soldiers not to shoot from your roof? Or were the Serbs out to get you specifically?

    People die in war, that is war. The documentary explains quite well the political reasoning behind it. I know some UN soldiers are probably less bias than you. So far you just said Serbs shot artillery around your house. So what? You are acting as if they were trying to blow you up.

    Croats did not have to take any land. Borders of Croatia were clear. Besides, you don't seem to understand that all those maps show majorities only. Majority means 50%+1. Effectively, there were Croats in areas with Serb majorities and there were also Serbs outside those areas. This was not a matter of territory until Serbian road blockades in sping 1991. Only afterwards you get clean Serbian areas and the rest of Croatia (because Serbs around Ogulin for instance, never rebelled, nor did Hungarians, Slovaks, Italians...)

    And could you please explain what kind of inroad was attack on Dubrovnik? How does that fit into this idea that Serbs were merely defending themselves (and occassionally ethnicly cleansing Croatian villages in the proximity while making inroads)?
    Borders of Croatia were clear? You mean the artificial borders that Tito made up? Sorry but the Croatian state was illegal. It had no borders. The way the Serbs were treated in Croatia was also abysmal. They were purged from jobs or any positions of power. They had to have minority ID cards like in Nazi Germany.

    I want to ask you one thing. If Croatia was alright in seperating from Yugoslavia, why couldn't Serbian Republick of Krajina seperate in turn if most of the people there wanted to remain in Yugoslavia?

    As for wiping out Serbian population, here's an interesting document:
    I'm not sure that probably forgery explains this:





    Oh, so this is not leveled enough, it should be leveled more?
    Sorry if you didn't want your city blown up than your Ustase loving government shouldn't have have illegally seceded and abused the Serbs in it.
    "Mors Certa, Hora Incerta."

    "We are a brave people of a warrior race, descendants of the illustrious Romans, who made the world tremor. And in this way we will make it known to the whole world that we are true Romans and their descendants, and our name will never die and we will make proud the memories of our parents." ~ Despot Voda 1561

    "The emperor Trajan, after conquering this country, divided it among his soldiers and made it into a Roman colony, so that these Romanians are descendants, as it is said, of these ancient colonists, and they preserve the name of the Romans." ~ 1532, Francesco della Valle Secretary of Aloisio Gritti, a natural son to Doge

  6. #6

    Default Re: War in Yugoslavia (Croatia)

    Quote Originally Posted by Carpathian Wolf View Post
    Borders of Croatia were clear? You mean the artificial borders that Tito made up? Sorry but the Croatian state was illegal. It had no borders. The way the Serbs were treated in Croatia was also abysmal. They were purged from jobs or any positions of power. They had to have minority ID cards like in Nazi Germany.
    Minority ID cars are a myth just like so many others. Serbs pretty much never got to be treated by Croatia one way or the other because they rebelled before anything else.

    And Croatian borders are the same borders which exist today. They are not perfect borders in terms of separating one nation form the other, but there is no reason why they should be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Carpathian Wolf View Post
    Maybe you should have told the Croatian soldiers not to shoot from your roof? Or were the Serbs out to get you specifically?

    People die in war, that is war. The documentary explains quite well the political reasoning behind it. I know some UN soldiers are probably less bias than you. So far you just said Serbs shot artillery around your house. So what? You are acting as if they were trying to blow you up.
    You really cannot see how targeting civilians is wrong?

    Obviously, you think it would've been better if Serbs had won the war and eventually destroyed Croatia. There was a speech back in 1991, it was held in Jagodnjak, that is a Serbian village just north from here. Milan Paroški, a member of Serbian parliament (of Federal Republic of Serbia) said there, I quote: "One koji kažu da ovo nije Srbija možete da ubijete kao kera pored tarabe." [Those who say this is not Serbia you may kill like dogs next to a fence.]

    I think you could find common language with this man. Not with me though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Carpathian Wolf View Post
    I want to ask you one thing. If Croatia was alright in seperating from Yugoslavia, why couldn't Serbian Republick of Krajina seperate in turn if most of the people there wanted to remain in Yugoslavia?
    Because there was no "there". Republic of Serbian Krajina simply included everything that was taken by the Serbian force of arms and excluded everything that was not. And this was by no means some kind of clear want/no want division. Which brings us back to Dubrovnik, you still haven't answered how attack there relates to Serbian and JNA forces only trying to protect endangered Serbs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Carpathian Wolf View Post
    Sorry if you didn't want your city blown up than your Ustase loving government shouldn't have have illegally seceded and abused the Serbs in it.
    Even if, and I say, even if an Ustase loving goverment abused all the Serbs out there (whatever that means) it still does not explain this:


  7. #7

    Default Re: War in Yugoslavia (Croatia)

    Yes, Vukovar was badly damaged in the heavy fighting, but since town had Serbian relative majority most of that property was Serbian, so?

    Does dose heavy fighting prove that Croats were poor unarmed civilians...or something totally different?

    Why don’t you say that pre war major of Vukovar was Serb (since Serbs had relative majority) but Croatian government have installed Tomislav Mercep as a sole ruler of life and death in the town ,who as commander of Croatian paramilitary forces, have become absolute ruler in the town. Total reign of terror of his forces was in few months before war had escalated. After he had blockaded local small barrack of Federal Army, Army command decided it must react finally and released the garrison. Too late move from Yugoslav Army, because Mercep have used two months to heavily fortify the town and blockade of the army garrison was made just to lure federal army into heavy urban warfare
    What happened than, was brutal street to street fighting, Stalingrad stile

  8. #8

    Default Re: War in Yugoslavia (Croatia)

    Quote Originally Posted by 4th Regiment View Post
    Yes, Vukovar was badly damaged in the heavy fighting, but since town had Serbian relative majority most of that property was Serbian, so?
    Indeed. But Croatian side was the one defending Vukovar and Serbian side was attacking. Serbs are not denying this, they just claim Vukovar was a valid target...and so it got targeted...a lot.

    Quote Originally Posted by 4th Regiment View Post
    Does dose heavy fighting prove that Croats were poor unarmed civilians...or something totally different?
    Croatian defenders in Vukovar counted every bullet, that's how well armed they were. Most had only partial camo clothes, not to mention any military education. Blago Zadro, one of the most important commanders of defense in Vukovar was a shoe-factory worker.

    Quote Originally Posted by 4th Regiment View Post
    Why don’t you say that pre war major of Vukovar was Serb (since Serbs had relative majority) but Croatian government have installed Tomislav Mercep as a sole ruler of life and death in the town ,who as commander of Croatian paramilitary forces, have become absolute ruler in the town. Total reign of terror of his forces was in few months before war had escalated. After he had blockaded local small barrack of Federal Army, Army command decided it must react finally and released the garrison. Too late move from Yugoslav Army, because Mercep have used two months to heavily fortify the town and blockade of the army garrison was made just to lure federal army into heavy urban warfare
    What happened than, was brutal street to street fighting, Stalingrad stile
    OK, so pre-war major of Vukovar was a Serb. And than he lost elections in 1990 (because that's when the elections in Croatia were held, I'm sure you jsut forgot to mention...). Merčep, however, was never major of Vukovar, but rather secretary of defense, so making sure that JNA leaves town was part of his job.



    Which "reign of terror" can be worse than that??????

  9. #9
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    Default Re: War in Yugoslavia (Croatia)

    Maybe you should have told the Croatian soldiers not to shoot from your roof? Or were the Serbs out to get you specifically?
    Wow. I mean, wow.

    Borders of Croatia were clear? You mean the artificial borders that Tito made up?







    It may be just me, but I kind of see the pattern.
    They had to have minority ID cards like in Nazi Germany.
    Really? My dad was listed as a Serb back then. Never got one of those Though I admit, he was fired from his job. Some thing were bad for Serbs. He found a new job, though. In Croatian Army

    I want to ask you one thing. If Croatia was alright in seperating from Yugoslavia, why couldn't Serbian Republick of Krajina seperate in turn if most of the people there wanted to remain in Yugoslavia?
    Because Croatia was one of the countries that formed the federation and it gained independence as a country, not as people. Krajina never existed as political entity.

    Sorry if you didn't want your city blown up than your Ustase loving government shouldn't have have illegally seceded and abused the Serbs in it.
    You know, there were 200000 Serbs living in unoccupied Croatian territory during the entire war. And were represented politically also. None lost a hair from his head out of the fighting zone. In besieged towns there was mistrust and few murders which are on trial for years now.
    Has signatures turned off.

  10. #10

    Default Re: War in Yugoslavia (Croatia)

    Wow. I mean, wow.
    That's reality.

    It may be just me, but I kind of see the pattern.
    You forgot this map:



    Really? My dad was listed as a Serb back then. Never got one of those Though I admit, he was fired from his job. Some thing were bad for Serbs. He found a new job, though. In Croatian Army
    So some didn't get ID cards. I'd rather not comment on your father. There are people and there are people, everywhere.

    Because Croatia was one of the countries that formed the federation and it gained independence as a country, not as people. Krajina never existed as political entity.
    watch the documentary and tell me that was legal.

    You know, there were 200000 Serbs living in unoccupied Croatian territory during the entire war. And were represented politically also. None lost a hair from his head out of the fighting zone. In besieged towns there was mistrust and few murders which are on trial for years now.
    Where?
    "Mors Certa, Hora Incerta."

    "We are a brave people of a warrior race, descendants of the illustrious Romans, who made the world tremor. And in this way we will make it known to the whole world that we are true Romans and their descendants, and our name will never die and we will make proud the memories of our parents." ~ Despot Voda 1561

    "The emperor Trajan, after conquering this country, divided it among his soldiers and made it into a Roman colony, so that these Romanians are descendants, as it is said, of these ancient colonists, and they preserve the name of the Romans." ~ 1532, Francesco della Valle Secretary of Aloisio Gritti, a natural son to Doge

  11. #11

    Default Re: War in Yugoslavia (Croatia)

    Quote Originally Posted by Carpathian Wolf View Post
    That's the Austro-Hungarian military frontier. It was an administrative entity, not a nation-state or a state of any kind. What this map does not show is the rest of the inner Austro-Hungarian divisions. What is marked as "Croatia" and "Slavonia" here is actually the same thing, represented by parliament in Zagreb and belonging to Hungarian lands in Empire's inner divison. The other part - Dalmatia was in the Austrian part of the Empire and had a parliament of its own. When Austria-Hungary annexed Bosnia military frontier was disabanded and joined back to Zagreb-governed Croatia.

    Quote Originally Posted by Carpathian Wolf View Post
    So some didn't get ID cards. I'd rather not comment on your father. There are people and there are people, everywhere.
    Well, give us the law that prescribed them. All Croatian laws from 1991 onwards are online.

    http://www.nn.hr/

    It's in Croatian so you should probably ask one of your friends from Serbian Network to help you, that should not be a problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by Carpathian Wolf View Post
    Where?
    I tried to explain to you that on those ethnic maps colors don't show everything. There were Serbs in all parts of Croatia, not all of them rebelled and consequently those who didn't, had no reason to believe Croatians are going to slaughter them all if they don't listen to their rebel leaders and flee.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grof View Post
    250 000 people forced from their lands and their homes and then they blame us for ethnic cleansing.
    Even if that were entirely true, this happened 4 years before:

    Last edited by Nestor Drake; April 05, 2009 at 06:18 PM.

  12. #12
    Grof's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: War in Yugoslavia (Croatia)

    250 000 people forced from their lands and their homes and then they blame us for ethnic cleansing. Look at Mostar, how many Serbs are there now? Tudjmans government gave money to Croats after the war to build homes on Serbian property and after he died the funds stopped coming so now all you have is the foundations of homes and nothing else.

    Христе Боже распети и свети, Српска земља кроз облаке лети. Лети преко небеских висина, Крила су јој Морава и Дрина.
    На три свето и на три саставно,Одлазимо на Косово равно.
    Кад је драга да одлазим чула,За ревер ми невен заденула.
    Збогом први нерођени сине, Збогом ружо, збогом рузмарине. Збогом лето, јесени и зимо. Одлазимо да их победимо.
    March 24, 1999 - June 11, 1999


  13. #13

    Default Re: War in Yugoslavia (Croatia)

    same.."Better close this thread!"

  14. #14

    Default Re: War in Yugoslavia (Croatia)

    See, if we were actually talking about the history instead of making nationalistic propaganda talking-points, we would also be pointing out the destruction of many Central Bosnian villages and their Bosniak inhabitants....

    Amazing how that "article" ignores that entire episode altogether, yet has no problems presenting the Muslims as the aggressors with the Croats.
    قرطاج يجب ان تدمر

  15. #15
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: War in Yugoslavia (Croatia)

    And Croatia was an illegal sessesion
    Succession is almost away illegal unless it succeeds...

    The results of the Slovenia succession would seem to set a president that republics could leave Yugoslavia.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  16. #16

    Default

    Hi there by my user name you can see that i see myself as a serbian.
    Truth is that i am half Serbian half Croatian.
    all this talk about who is guilty of what is relevant and by all means important. only thing i would like to point out that people like mercep in vukovar (my hometown) were ultra nationalist and that they did crimes. Todays croatian flag is same flag that was above death camp of Jasenovac in WWII. all of this secession of 1991 was made possible by WWII ustashe from diaspora that run away after WWII to CANADA and SOUTH AMERICA.
    You do not have a slightest idea how people are infused with hate for example here in Canada. Nationalist born in Canada doesn't even want to speak with me in the bar when he found out that i am mixed marriage child, because his grandpa told him that Serbs are animals and less then him. he never step foot on croatin soil.
    Also how come that in that war where serbs were such aggressors we have the highest count of refugess 750 000.
    when i was a boy i said that i am a Yugoslav. I was second grade of school of "Bratstvo i Jedinstvo" in Borovo and i got beat up for it. When we had draw the flag of your country assigment all the croatian kids drew different flags then me. Just goes to show that we did not know what was coming while other people raised their kids to think of us differantly.
    My neighbour planted land mines behind our house in our corn field and my uncle died because of it. My father cant hear well becaouse he also drove a tracktor over a land mine.My serbian side of the familly did not have weapons while every croatian in our neighbourhood was parading them around.
    what i am trying to say that Vukovar was not started by Serbs for sure and 100%.
    My father did not arm himself and go molest some familly because they were croatian, he had to arm himself because idiots were being armed and let loose to molest people. my mother is a croatian women and was harrassed by a mentaly challenged croatian with an pistol because she was married to a serb. what the hell did he know about political situation. he was given a gun and taught that he is croatian and that everyone who is not is less.
    all this being said i still am half and half. our nations need to see that we have more in common with each other (no matter how much we dissliked each other) then with any other counrty in the world.

    that is my opinion i hope that someone will not be angry because these are the things that i know for sure and they shaped the way i think.
    some things you could check out are
    -ghosts of medak pocket (canadian written)
    -yugoslavia: avoidable war (made in US)

    BTW greatest enemy of serbs a Jew Madeline Albright was a refugee in north serbia in WWII and hidden by a Serbian familly. She said "we have weaponry why not use it" (on serbia that is) and then NATO bombed serbia.
    I have an idea-lives of women and children -you half women half man abomination.
    Kucan the president of slovenia that approved killing of Yugo army that had no killing ammo just practice ammo also found his sanctuary in Vojvodina in WWII.
    How ungratefull dont you think.
    Last edited by Atterdag; April 11, 2009 at 01:36 PM.

  17. #17

    Default Re: War in Yugoslavia (Croatia)

    Quote Originally Posted by serbian View Post
    You do not have a slightest idea how people are infused with hate for example here in Canada. Nationalist born in Canada doesn't even want to speak with me in the bar when he found out that i am mixed marriage child, because his grandpa told him that Serbs are animals and less then him. he never step foot on croatin soil.
    that's just not right. I feel for you brother. Just ignore those dickheads.
    Have a question about China? Get your answer here.

  18. #18

    Default Re: War in Yugoslavia (Croatia)

    See, if we were actually talking about the history instead of making nationalistic propaganda talking-points, we would also be pointing out the destruction of many Central Bosnian villages and their Bosniak inhabitants....

    Amazing how that "article" ignores that entire episode altogether, yet has no problems presenting the Muslims as the aggressors with the Croats.
    Yes let's continue to ignore the Serbian suffering because yea the Bosniaks and Croats are basically always ignored by the media. It isn't like the kangaroo court is doing their best to get them what they want or anything.

    Please motiv, don't speak such non sense. Villages get destroyed in war. It happened to all three sides by all three sides. The difference is that the Serbs had no "ethnic cleansing goal" and for the most part neither did the Bosniaks (id like to think so anyway.) But the Croatians on the other hand...

    You speak of ignoring, but what about the fact that so much of the covarage of the war ignores Serbs almost completely and how the media made it into some "cowboy and indians" situation?

    Hi there by my user name you can see that i see myself as a serbian.
    Truth is that i am half Serbian half Croatian.
    all this talk about who is guilty of what is relevant and by all means important. only thing i would like to point out that people like mercep in vukovar (my hometown) were ultra nationalist and that they did crimes. Todays croatian flag is same flag that was above death camp of Jasenovac in WWII. all of this secession of 1991 was made possible by WWII ustashe from diaspora that run away after WWII to CANADA and SOUTH AMERICA.
    You do not have a slightest idea how people are infused with hate for example here in Canada. Nationalist born in Canada doesn't even want to speak with me in the bar when he found out that i am mixed marriage child, because his grandpa told him that Serbs are animals and less then him. he never step foot on croatin soil.
    Also how come that in that war where serbs were such aggressors we have the highest count of refugess 750 000.
    when i was a boy i said that i am a Yugoslav. I was second grade of school of "Bratstvo i Jedinstvo" in Borovo and i got beat up for it. When we had draw the flag of your country assigment all the croatian kids drew different flags then me. Just goes to show that we did not know what was coming while other people raised their kids to think of us differantly.
    My neighbour planted land mines behind our house in our corn field and my uncle died because of it. My father cant hear well becaouse he also drove a tracktor over a land mine.My serbian side of the familly did not have weapons while every croatian in our neighbourhood was parading them around.
    what i am trying to say that Vukovar was not started by Serbs for sure and 100%.
    My father did not arm himself and go molest some familly because they were croatian, he had to arm himself because idiots were being armed and let loose to molest people. my mother is a croatian women and was harrassed by a mentaly challenged croatian with an pistol because she was married to a serb. what the hell did he know about political situation. he was given a gun and taught that he is croatian and that everyone who is not is less.
    all this being said i still am half and half. our nations need to see that we have more in common with each other (no matter how much we dissliked each other) then with any other counrty in the world.

    that is my opinion i hope that someone will not be angry because these are the things that i know for sure and they shaped the way i think.
    some things you could check out are
    -ghosts of medak pocket (canadian written)
    -yugoslavia: avoidable war (made in US)
    That's really sad and so stupid of those people. With the exception of maybe slight grammatical difference and a difference in religion, Serbs and Croats are pretty much identical. And to treat you so badley over such things.
    "Mors Certa, Hora Incerta."

    "We are a brave people of a warrior race, descendants of the illustrious Romans, who made the world tremor. And in this way we will make it known to the whole world that we are true Romans and their descendants, and our name will never die and we will make proud the memories of our parents." ~ Despot Voda 1561

    "The emperor Trajan, after conquering this country, divided it among his soldiers and made it into a Roman colony, so that these Romanians are descendants, as it is said, of these ancient colonists, and they preserve the name of the Romans." ~ 1532, Francesco della Valle Secretary of Aloisio Gritti, a natural son to Doge

  19. #19

    Default Re: War in Yugoslavia (Croatia)

    Quote Originally Posted by serbian View Post
    Also how come that in that war where serbs were such aggressors we have the highest count of refugess 750 000.
    Excellent point and fact often forgotten.That number was official Red Cross number of refugees only in Serbia and Montenegro during wars in Bosnia and Croatia-1991-1995. Nobody knows how much more people fled to other European Countries, and across the ocean. Serbia in that time (under sanctions more severe that those against Iraq) was a huge refugee camp. With hyperinflation, economy in ruins…God, I lost my best years in that inferno.

    After the Dayton agreement some of the Serbs from Bosnia have returned but most have been integrated and started new life in Serbia and some have gone to western countries. Serbs from Croatia however, have returned in minimal numbers in their homes in Croatia and either remanied in Serbia or went to the west.

    And in 1999 we have received another influx of 250 000 refugees of Serbs and non Albanians from Kosovo…
    PS. You are now in Canada?

  20. #20
    Praetorian_BGX's Avatar Ordinarius
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    Default Re: War in Yugoslavia (Croatia)

    How many of you guys were in Yugoslavia when war started? How many of you live in some ex yugo country today?

    "The strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must
    ."
    -Thucydides



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