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  1. #1

    Default Forget Obama, G20: Brown at his Best

    As Simon Schama put it: 'What do you know? It turns out we needed the Calvinist heavyweight in the meltdown after all.' It all seemed doomed for Brown, but I think recent events have shown the ex-chancellor at his best. Let's face it, Brown was at the heart of the G20, and so the majority of the unexpected succes should rightfully go towards the British PM. With Britains aims to increase IMF resources being more than met, and Stockmarkets showing brief signs of recovery, my confidence in Gordon has been re-kindled. A political turning-point? Maybe.

  2. #2
    Vizsla's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Forget Obama, G20: Brown at his Best

    Do you not think the G20 was just an enormous PR exercise though?

    Sarkozy and Merkel demand something that has already been agreed and threaten to walk out if they don’t get it, which they know they already have.

    Why the sudden concentration on tax havens? They’ve been around for decades and have all to do with the current economic crisis. Could it be they saw something they all wanted to do and wanted to be seen to be in agreement on and appear dynamic?

    They didn’t let journalists into the building so the only reports we’ve got come directly from each leader's PR machines.

    It’s our fault. If we didn’t fall for this spin crap every time they wouldn’t keep doing it.

    Last time round they all earnestly promised not to be protectionist. Then they all went home and started protecting ‘key industries’ for the good of their countries respective economies. Which is protectionist.

    Wake up and smell the bull .

    /rant
    Last edited by Vizsla; April 05, 2009 at 12:45 PM.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Forget Obama, G20: Brown at his Best

    Quote Originally Posted by Vizsla View Post
    Do you not think the G20 was just an enormous PR exercise though?

    Sarkozy and Merkel demand something that has already been agreed and threaten to walk out if they don’t get it, which they know they already have.

    Why the sudden concentration on tax havens? They’ve been around for decades and have all to do with the current economic crisis. Could it be they saw something they all wanted to do and wanted to be seen to be in agreement on and appear dynamic?

    They didn’t let journalists into the building so the only reports we’ve got come directly from each leader's PR machines.

    It’s our fault. If we didn’t fall for this spin crap every time they wouldn’t keep doing it.

    Last time round they all earnestly promised not to be protectionist. Then they all went home and started protecting ‘key industries’ for the good of their countries respective economies. Which is protectionist.

    Wake up and smell the bull .

    /rant
    Sarkozy's Sarkozy, Obama was there to put a top on it and the deals still stood. Tax Havens have always been around, but in a recession were moneys short there's more reason to be tough on them. So what on the journalists? We still have quite a few juicy details, and the conclusions of the event remain. On the spinning - isn't that half of stopping the recession? The money's there, we're just not spending it. If conferences like this get confidence in the economy again and people get spending and the recession stops - even if the conferences are all an act - I can't see how it's bad. I agree that the last few of these turned out crap, but even if most countries don't stick to all their protectionism promises we've got some good amounts of money to put into the economy and a lot of this is thanks to Brown. He can't make the leaders stick to their promises, but he did manage to make them get together and agree on some mighty sums for injecting.

    Please elaborate Scar Face. I hope you realize that the whole economy relies on an artificial sense of confidence.

  4. #4
    Scar Face's Avatar Indefinitely Banned
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    Default Re: Forget Obama, G20: Brown at his Best

    Quote Originally Posted by Desperado † View Post
    As Simon Schama put it: 'What do you know? It turns out we needed the Calvinist heavyweight in the meltdown after all.' It all seemed doomed for Brown, but I think recent events have shown the ex-chancellor at his best. Let's face it, Brown was at the heart of the G20, and so the majority of the unexpected succes should rightfully go towards the British PM. With Britains aims to increase IMF resources being more than met, and Stockmarkets showing brief signs of recovery, my confidence in Gordon has been re-kindled. A political turning-point? Maybe.
    You realize everything that went on in the g20 is bad for the economy, and the stock market has been on an artificial rally for a few weeks now?

  5. #5

    Default Re: Forget Obama, G20: Brown at his Best

    Quote Originally Posted by Scar Face View Post
    You realize everything that went on in the g20 is bad for the economy, and the stock market has been on an artificial rally for a few weeks now?
    In a speculation based economy, whenever the market goes up or down, it's technically "artificial", because all it is is what investors think.

    What's your point? Let's get rid of speculation entirely and reduce the size of Western economies by 80%?

  6. #6

    Default Re: Forget Obama, G20: Brown at his Best

    Quote Originally Posted by Scar Face View Post
    You realize everything that went on in the g20 is bad for the economy, and the stock market has been on an artificial rally for a few weeks now?
    Stock market booms are just as artificial as stock market rallies... it's ALL artificial.

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  7. #7
    Scar Face's Avatar Indefinitely Banned
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    Default Re: Forget Obama, G20: Brown at his Best

    Quote Originally Posted by Justinian View Post
    Stock market booms are just as artificial as stock market rallies... it's ALL artificial.
    No. When the stock market goes up- obviously this is ideally, considering the recent bubbles- its because there is real economic growth going on, and people want to invest in those sectors of the economy in order to take a share of its profits. There is a lot of manipulation in the Stock market which makes it go up or down without justification, and obviously there is always the potential for bubbles or panics, but by and by the growth or decline in a stock market coincides with the growth or decline of that company in the real economy. Right now however, the stock market is going up while most of these companies are insolvent and being bailed out by America. It's ridiculous.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Forget Obama, G20: Brown at his Best

    Quote Originally Posted by Scar Face View Post
    No. When the stock market goes up- obviously this is ideally, considering the recent bubbles- its because there is real economic growth going on, and people want to invest in those sectors of the economy in order to take a share of its profits. There is a lot of manipulation in the Stock market which makes it go up or down without justification, and obviously there is always the potential for bubbles or panics, but by and by the growth or decline in a stock market coincides with the growth or decline of that company in the real economy. Right now however, the stock market is going up while most of these companies are insolvent and being bailed out by America. It's ridiculous.
    There is no difference between "fake" growth and "real" growth -- if the stock market rises artificially it is still improving the economy. Improving the fundamentals of the economy? No, but still improving the economy and more money being injected into it.

    Besides, considering the meaning of artificial, everything related to the economy is artificial.

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    Scar Face's Avatar Indefinitely Banned
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    Default Re: Forget Obama, G20: Brown at his Best

    Quote Originally Posted by Justinian View Post
    There is no difference between "fake" growth and "real" growth -- if the stock market rises artificially it is still improving the economy. Improving the fundamentals of the economy? No, but still improving the economy and more money being injected into it.
    If the growth is fake, you are pouring money into a declining or mismanaged industry, and you are creating a bubble. So no, you are not improving the economy, you are using resources inefficiently, and doing massive damage.

    Edit: Basically all you can do by pouring money into the market without due cause is manipulation. It's a common tactic in the stock market to set off a rumor that a company is doing well and its a good investment. You put down some money. Idiots horde in and pour money into the stock, and then you sell. You make a killing. But you waste capital from other people and ultimately fail to put those resources into actual helpful enterprises, and all you are doing is playing a game. There use to be regulation against this- its called short selling IIRC- but theres not anymore. Other than short selling the only possibility is the formation of a bubble, as I said previously.
    Last edited by Scar Face; April 05, 2009 at 02:27 PM.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Forget Obama, G20: Brown at his Best

    @ scarface the largest growth spurt since 1933 over the past month is not a false gain.

  11. #11
    Scar Face's Avatar Indefinitely Banned
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    Default Re: Forget Obama, G20: Brown at his Best

    Quote Originally Posted by Chaigidel View Post
    @ scarface the largest growth spurt since 1933 over the past month is not a false gain.
    The largest Growth spurt in the market, coupled with one of the largest gains of unemployment as well, with no signs of slowing down. Why do you think were talking about bailouts both nationally and globally if there is actual growth here?
    Quote Originally Posted by Vercingetorix_Defeated View Post
    In a speculation based economy, whenever the market goes up or down, it's technically "artificial", because all it is is what investors think.

    What's your point? Let's get rid of speculation entirely and reduce the size of Western economies by 80%?
    No. Its artificial when its based around nothing. Most speculation has some hint of facts and economy to justify it. Most rallies come about when people realize the economic turmoil is over, and yet we are seeing ever increasing calls for bailouts to end the recession, ever increasing inflation, etc. There is zero economic sense in pouring money into the stock market, its just manipulation, and its going to come crashing down very soon.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Forget Obama, G20: Brown at his Best

    Quote Originally Posted by Scar Face View Post
    No. Its artificial when its based around nothing. Most speculation has some hint of facts and economy to justify it. Most rallies come about when people realize the economic turmoil is over, and yet we are seeing ever increasing calls for bailouts to end the recession, ever increasing inflation, etc. There is zero economic sense in pouring money into the stock market, its just manipulation, and its going to come crashing down very soon.
    Dude, the speculation based economy is the most complicated thing in the entire world.

    NOONE can claim that they understand it fully.

    If you understand it even partially, you should be a billionaire.

    It's technically all artificial, it's based only on what people think, not what they know for certain.

  13. #13
    Otherside's Avatar Ordinarius
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    Default Re: Forget Obama, G20: Brown at his Best

    he was seen as the big winner of the G20 but i doubt it will be enough to save him, depends what happens over the next few weeks.

  14. #14
    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Forget Obama, G20: Brown at his Best

    A stock market is not a good way to measure growth or prosperity or any real gains.

    Mark A pribonic, managing director and block trader for an investment bank, his blog is www.scrambledeggeconomics.com:


    As the president signs the trillion-dollar stimulus package into law, financial networks are abuzz with investment pundits speculating on what companies will benefit, and thus what stocks should be purchased. Such analysis makes an error of causality commonly found in equities research. It assumes a direct correlation between business activity and stock prices.

    The price of a stock is derived from a transaction involving the exchange of money for a piece of paper that denotes fractional ownership of a corporation. The profits of a business are a result of transactions where money is received, minus the cost, in exchange for a good. In addition, with the exception of initial public offerings and secondary offerings, the money in a stock purchase ends up in the pocket of another individual and not the coffers of the company.

    Expenditures on goods are a function of income, while outlays for stock or any other investment requires savings — income that is set aside for future consumption.

    Depending on one's lot in life, savings will be accumulated for a variety of reasons, which may include purchasing a house, funding a child's college tuition, or buying a new car. For most, the financing of a house or an automobile would consume a great portion of savings, and that savings would need to be safeguarded from the exposed risk found in stocks. Saving for a house, therefore, could mean temporarily less money invested in stocks or other asset classes.

    The recent easy-money credit era helped solve such problems. With zero-down financing and low initial payments, individuals could have it all: a house, a new car, the latest in electronic equipment, and investments in the stock market. By all appearances, the rise in stock prices seemed perfectly correlated with increasing business revenues bolstered by debt-driven consumption. As the debt bubble imploded, individuals withdrew money from investments to service existing liabilities and reversed course on consumption. Again, spending at the cash register and the movement of stock prices seemed in harmony. Statistically driven models would conclude that stock prices shadow, or in some cases foreshadow, business activity.

    But why do individuals buy stocks or mutual funds, which are managed pools of money usually allocated toward stocks or bonds? This question is a subset of the larger question of why individuals invest. The reason, of course, is to make money on existing savings.

    The investing individual has numerous avenues to choose from when deciding where to make money work. The most common type of investment includes stocks, corporate bonds, municipal bonds, government bonds, real estate, precious metals, and cash accounts. The allocation of money among the different choices boils down to which investment instrument offers the best reward for the assessed risk. In an effort to diversify risk, most will choose several investment vehicles.

    Stocks, therefore, compete in a figurative sense against all other investment classes. Choosing the stocks to put in one's portfolio from thousands of securities takes an almost identical path of risk-reward assessment. The benefits from owning stock come in two forms: dividends and price appreciation. Dividends are money flows coming directly from the company, while price appreciation happens when another individual bids more than what one paid for the stock.

    Analysis based on stock yields, the dividend divided by the price paid per share, is fairly simple. Buyers will bid up stocks with compelling yields to the point where such advantage disappears; money will flow from low yielding instruments to higher ones. Such analysis, however, must take into account the safety of the dividend and company balance sheets.

    The price-appreciation analysis used by many today, especially for stocks that offer little or no yield, is somewhat convoluted in its logic. In simple terms, the model uses a calculation of revenue growth, earnings, and price-earnings ratio to derive a hypothetical valuation of the stock and to decide whether the current price is cheap or expensive. This sort of analysis is the basis for the question of what stocks will benefit from the stimulus package.

    This type of mathematical analysis places the emphasis for stock-price movement in the wrong place. It leads one to believe that stock prices are a function of transactions at the cash register.

    Stock transactions depends on one party having sufficient savings to participate. In an environment of deleveraging, where individuals are either retiring outstanding debt or unable to acquire additional credit that would free up resources for other uses, the amount of savings to power higher stock prices probably does not exist.

    Even in the cases of merger and acquisition, where stock holders are entirely bought out of their ownership by a corporate takeover or private equity, debt plays a major role. Fueled by the easy credit that marked the bubble, corporate buyouts exploded in a two-year period from 2005 through 2007. In 2006, private equity bought 654 US companies for a total of $375 billion or 18 times the transactions witnessed three years before. Additionally the total money that private equity raised during the same period surpassed the previous year's totals by 33%. The previous record for buyout activity, not coincidentally, occurred at the peak of the tech bubble in 2000. Today, the buyout calendar is barely a trickle, compared to years past.


    The good news today is that individuals have started the process of retiring debt and increasing savings, which is the first step toward recovery in the financial markets. Unfortunately, the government continues to pursue a policy of ripping any accumulated savings away from them in the form of taxation or inflation.

    The net effect of inflation is that it devalues the worth of paper assets. Stocks, therefore, provide little in real wealth building during times of soaring prices for goods. The inflationary environment causes savers to divert savings from paper assets to the safer harbor of hard assets such as precious metals, commodities, or even goods used for daily use.

    Until the government and the Federal Reserve stop their interventionist policies and stop robbing individuals of their savings, those searching for a meaningful rally in equities may be looking for a long time.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Forget Obama, G20: Brown at his Best

    and those who expect the market to behave like a thinking thing with its own interests at heart ( e.g. sustainability ) are fooling themselves.

  16. #16
    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Forget Obama, G20: Brown at his Best

    The market would sustain itself if things were allowed to collapse in due time and credit was not expandable like it is now, which it wouldn't be in a free system. RBS one of the biggest contributors to the crisis (with a 1.2 trillion balance sheet) should never have been able to expand that much credit much of it in risky deals without other banks shutting down their lines of credit out of fear. The giant safety net of the state and state bonds providing liquidity, the fiat system and fractionalised banking has led to this not the market in itself.

  17. #17
    Erik's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Forget Obama, G20: Brown at his Best

    Quote Originally Posted by Desperado † View Post
    Let's face it, Brown was at the heart of the G20
    What do you base this on?



  18. #18

    Default Re: Forget Obama, G20: Brown at his Best

    Quote Originally Posted by Erik View Post
    What do you base this on?
    Was kind of wondering that myself.

    Britain isn't even the dominant power in the European Union, it sure as hell isn't in the G20.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Forget Obama, G20: Brown at his Best

    Scar Face, do you not agree that an economy needs an artificial sense of confidence to function?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vercingetorix_Defeated View Post
    Was kind of wondering that myself.

    Britain isn't even the dominant power in the European Union, it sure as hell isn't in the G20.
    You don't have to be a dominant world power to be able to make a summit successful.

    Quote Originally Posted by http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/apr/03/g20-gordon-brown-nicolas-sarkozy
    Gordon Brown bade farewell to his global guests last night surely aware that his international stock will never be higher. Even the most grudging foreign counterpart - step forward Nicolas Sarkozy - would have to admit that Brown emerged from the G20 with his standing on the world stage enhanced. It wasn't simply that he chaired the London meeting effectively by all accounts - even, according to the Dutch prime minister, "inspiring" those around the table.
    Instead it was the advance work he had done that ensured its success would be his success - and that its failure would have been his failure.
    For months he had raised the stakes, trumpeting the importance of the London summit, encouraging the view that this was a make or break event for the global economy. Travelling the world last week, even to far-flung Santiago, was the final proof that Brown was investing all his political capital in the G20.
    That represented a high-risk strategy. If President Sarkozy had made good his threat to walk out, or if the heads of government had come up only with a bland communique short on hard figures or firm commitments, Brown would have been left humiliated. His critics would have gleefully declared that the British prime minister had pleaded with his fellow leaders to act - and that they had brushed him aside.
    In the event, the London gathering lived up to at least some of Brown's advance billing. The headline figure of $1.1tn, available for injection into the world economy via the IMF and World Bank, makes good Brown's promise of a global fiscal stimulus. True, it is not what he had originally hoped for - a series of commitments from saver economies such as China to spend more - but it was substantial and, in its detail, more than had been expected.
    By agreeing a name and shame list of tax havens, the G20 gave teeth to Brown's promise that the London conference would tighten regulation of global capital (thereby avoiding what had threatened to be a nasty rift with France and Germany). But it also enabled Brown to claim he had nudged the world towards a goal he has, as he put it yesterday, been advocating "for 10 years": a new global financial architecture.
    So the 36 hours in London allowed the PM to play the role in which he appears most comfortable: chancellor to the world. Even his opening statement at the end-of-summit press conference had the rhythm and grammar of a budget speech.
    But the tougher question is whether that helps Brown in his current job, as prime minister of Britain. The problem he may soon find is that high praise from fellow world leaders does not automatically translate into popularity at home.
    In this regard he has two key problems. The first is that the agreements made yesterday are complex. Brown struggled yesterday, under repeated questioning, to explain what they will do for Britons worried about their jobs or homes. Arguing that the British economy has no hope unless the world economy recovers might be just too abstract.
    Indeed, this will be the ground on which the Conservatives hope to attack. The summit had barely finished yesterday when David Cameron declared that now it was time to get back to the bread and butter of economic pain in the UK. The Tories will hope that the glamour images of visiting world leaders - and especially of Barack Obama palling around with, and lavishing warm compliments on, his "friend" the British prime minister - will soon fade.
    Second, the action undertaken in Docklands will not, as Brown conceded, deliver any kind of "quick fix". Its benefits might not be felt for a year or two. That will be fine for historians - who may well look back on 2 April 2009 as a crucial landmark in the journey back to economic health, giving credit to Brown for showing the way. But for a prime minister desperate to overturn stubbornly bad poll numbers, and facing election in 2010, that would be too late.
    Chancellor of the world? 'Inspiring' those around the table? Brown was definately the key figure in this summit, even if Britain wasn't the key country.

  20. #20
    Scar Face's Avatar Indefinitely Banned
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    Default Re: Forget Obama, G20: Brown at his Best

    Quote Originally Posted by Desperado † View Post
    Scar Face, do you not agree that an economy needs an artificial sense of confidence to function?
    I think an economy needs to face reality in order to function.

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