Skirmisher balance: suggestions?

[Vercingetorix_Defeated]

When going through and balancing units, skirmishers are always tricky. I don't know historically how effective the various javelins were, or how many an average volley should kill based on the armor of the unit they hit, etc.

Does anybody know how lethal, accurate, and far ranged these things were back then? Accuracy also doesn't seem to be in the EDU like the other traits, but it's one that could be very useful balancing skirmishers.

[RedFox]

For javelin skirmishers, I suggest reducing range to 45m, then try reducing the ammo by one or two javelins. And the last change would be to tweak the attack value of the missile. For this, you will probably have to play a dozen battles to get it just right.

The same method should apply for missile units, but the range should be around 100m and ammo reduced to 16. Again a lot of playtesting will have to be done via custom battles.
This will make battles much more melee based, instead of having prolonged missile fire. And a quick advance is an effective way to lessen the effects of the missile units.

Don't know if you like these changes or not, but it's a way to balance the unit. I recommend you set the ranged unit's dagger attack to something very weak, so it will preffer using the ranged attack.

[Vercingetorix_Defeated]

Yeah, I've been using those values to balance them, but the problem is, I don't know what the right balance should be, because I don't know historically how lethal these javelins, pilum, etc, actually were.

I don't want them to be devastating well armored units, but I also don't want them to be useless. I think they should be most effective against enemies with no armor and especially no shields, that's what I'm trying to balance them for, but I don't know how many they should kill per volley.

[Zarax]

There are not many stats around plus they are very influenced by battle conditions.
Skirmishers should be deadly to unsupported heavy inf as they cannot properly retaliante and light troops are able to stay away from melee, but at the same time cavalry should wipe them out in most cases.

Roman pilum during early empire had an estimated effectiveness of around 10%, meaning one dead enemy every 10 pila.
In TW terms this translated in around 20 kills from the front for a unit of 100 principes/legionaries.

[Vercingetorix_Defeated]

Yeah, but the pilum were a lot heavier with a lot more penetrative power than the light javelins used by peltasts, right.

Also, what was the difference that shields and armor made to the casualties the Roman pila had? Surely they'd be more effective against barbarians with no armor or shields.

[Zarax]

Pilums were on the heavy side and pretty effective, but you shouldn't underestimate lighter javs either.
The advantage of a lighter projectile is that it has slightly better range and you can carry more of them.
Compare 1-2 pila per soldier against the 6-8 javelins carried by peltasts and thureophoroi.

Lastly, consider that the main purpose of missiles was not to kill enemies but to hinder their line cohesion making them vulnerable to charges, something pretty much impossible to simulate properly with the RTW engine.

[Vae victis]

I would like to see more damage done by javelins, especialy for missle cavalry and generals bodygaurd. I think that the current balance is good. The more people in a unit = more javelins thrown = more kills. I would just like to see more kills and morale reduction from them overall.

[Vercingetorix_Defeated]

I would like to see more damage done by javelins, especialy for missle cavalry and generals bodygaurd. I think that the current balance is good. The more people in a unit = more javelins thrown = more kills. I would just like to see more kills and morale reduction from them overall.

Just turn up their damage then, it's pretty easy to do.

When skirmishers massacre other units, it makes it pretty pointless to recruit other units, because skirmishers are usually the cheapest ones.

[Vae victis]

When skirmishers massacre other units, it makes it pretty pointless to recruit other units, because skirmishers are usually the cheapest ones.

Thats true, but skirmishers are weak and vulnerable to any unit that can catch them. Once my skirmishers throw their 3 or 4 pilum, I have no more use for them in the battle. The more skirmishers that you put in a stack, the less heavy infantry and frontline troops you will have when you need to clash with the enemy. If they caused a little more damage, I would use more of them in my armies. If their damage is increased in the next patch that would be cool. I can find a few uses for them the way that they are though too.

[synthesis]

Just turn up their damage then, it's pretty easy to do.

When skirmishers massacre other units, it makes it pretty pointless to recruit other units, because skirmishers are usually the cheapest ones.

Dude, when people say things like that they mean it as feedback for DBH. The point is that they believe their suggestion will help balance the game for everyone.

[aznflea]

thereophoroi are powerful for their cost. i find myself spamming them instead of the phalanx early game. teh only time i make phalanx is to garrison and defend cities

[Vercingetorix_Defeated]

thereophoroi are powerful for their cost. i find myself spamming them instead of the phalanx early game. teh only time i make phalanx is to garrison and defend cities

Yeah, I agree with you. With armor piercing javelins and like 6 of them, they can devastate pretty much any unit out there. Even elites get slaughtered by a few units of them.

Skirmishers in general in XGM were pretty overpowered in my opinion, especially for their cost. I removed armor piercing from them and it made a huge difference, and reduced their ammo. Now they are useful against unarmored soldiers especially without shields, but they no longer will wipe out entire units of armored soldiers.