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  1. #1
    Zarax's Avatar Triple Chaosmaster
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    Default Reworking the AI bonus system

    The issue here is simple.
    The AI will never hope to match human strategic planning so it needs to cheat in order to get a chance.

    The question is: how do we do it so it's challenging but not frustrating?

    Imho the actual system while challenging does not give a chance for the player to just play slow if he wants, making the game a blitztrieg before AI starts recruiting overwhelming number of troops.
    Especially as Pontus or Armenia the player will need to be Hannibal reincarnated to survive, and even then the risk of ending up like him is substantial.
    For those with less historical knowledge, he won every battle until Zama but all his tactical skill was nullified by the fact that Rome would just raise more armies after each defeat. Not exactly a desiderable outcome...

    What I propose is:

    1) drastically cut down the discounts and tax bonuses for AI to half for normal bonuses and completely for reduced

    2) remove all pop growth bonuses except for the very first town level

    3) replace the colony cash bonus with a small happiness one

    This first step will make cash tighter for both player and AI.

    Now, how to give AI an edge?

    The answer is again right in XGM.

    Take a look at this line from the carthaginian monument:
    recruit "libyan heavy infantry" requires factions { carthage, }
    What it does is allowing AI to recruit libyan heavies everywhere as long as the monument is owned by the faction.

    With this, the number of useless levies fielded by the AI is drastically reduced while you're assured to face decent numbers of heavy troops.

    Doing this for all factions will ensure the player to face challenging armies while keeping their numbers reasonable.

    All we have to do is to elect one or two units per faction that will be allowed to have privileged AI recruitment and test how it works.

    AI vs AI balancing:

    Some might be worried that without bonuses the smaller factions will crumble quickly against bigger ones.
    Let me assure you that it's quite the opposite. Without a blitztrieg player I've had games in which the first faction was wiped out around 230BC instead of the first 20 turns like now.

    If loosing faction patterns will develop those can be easily countered by giving them some bonuses but not on global scale like before.
    After all, any global AI bonus will only give an accelerated snowball effect, meaning that the bigger they are, more substantial the bonus is, cancelling in fact any hopes of balancing.

    What is advisable here is to just give the monument some local bonuses in order to make smaller factions relatively wealthier and at the same time have the effects get proportionally smaller as the faction grows.
    By strenghtening the anti-snowball system already in place we could actually make expansion less and less profitable like it should be.

    So, just to sum it up:

    1) toning down the global tax bonuses and contruction discounts

    2) giving more sensible growth bonuses

    3) allowing privileged AI recruitment

    4) giving localized bonuses where needed and strengthening the anti-snowball system

    will bring us a campaign that will be challenging but not frustrating, giving fewer but better AI stacks while giving more weight to player development decisions and slowing down the benefits of expansion as the game progresses plus the added benefit of having a less blatant feel of AI cheating.

    What do you think?
    Any ideas or alternate proposals?
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  2. #2

    Default Re: Reworking the AI bonus system

    I'm all for reducing the number of endless enemy stacks, but in my experience, levied troops aren't composing most of them.

    The Seleucid empire had the most stacks in my Greek campaign, but they were composed of all thorakitai and better troops: they must have fielded at least 10 000 silver shield pikemen and 5000 cataphracts alone.

    The AI bonuses they got were obviously way too high. This is with AI bonuses reduced option chosen from the installer.

    Increasing the number of enemy stacks isn't a solution to brain dead AI at all. It's like saying "we know the AI can't fight decently on the battle map, so we'll have the AI throw two dozen identical stacks at you, so you get bored of fighting the same battle over and over and choose auto resolve, which the AI doesn't suck at."

  3. #3
    RedFox's Avatar When it's done.™
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    Default Re: Reworking the AI bonus system

    >>Any ideas or alternate proposals?
    Have my babies?

    Seriously, I think this is a very good explanation on what must be done to balance AI. These ideas are really great and I'll take the liberty of using them in DTW. (with your permission of course, but since you're already having my babies, I guess I have priviledged access D: )

  4. #4
    Zarax's Avatar Triple Chaosmaster
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    Default Re: Reworking the AI bonus system

    Quote Originally Posted by RedFox View Post
    >>Any ideas or alternate proposals?
    Have my babies?
    Unless you turn out to be a pretty girl we can put this as back-up option I guess

    Seriously, I think this is a very good explanation on what must be done to balance AI. These ideas are really great and I'll take the liberty of using them in DTW. (with your permission of course, but since you're already having my babies, I guess I have priviledged access D: )
    You of course have my permission, just let me know how it works out.
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  5. #5
    DimeBagHo's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Reworking the AI bonus system

    Some explanation of how things work in XGM now:

    Under the current XGM the AI only recruits low level units from low level settlements. That was still a noticeable problem for Carthage and the Seleucids, both of which start out with significant numbers of low level settlements.

    To fix that problem I gave both factions a good unit that they could recruit anywhere. Carthage got regular Libyans. The Seleucids got a special version of Thorakitai that takes several turns to recruit. The long recruitment time helps to prevent the Seleucid AI from spamming Thorakitai early in the game, and also stops them from over-recruiting in small settlements.

    At present the AI doesn't get any special population growth bonuses. Instead farming levels have been cut in all regions, and low level settlements get population bonuses that taper off as the settlement grows. So it is relatively easy for most settlements to reach city level, but harder for them to grow past that.

    Vercingetorix_Defeated: Increasing the number of AI stacks isn't intended to compensate for weak battlefield AI. It's intended to compensate for weak strategic AI. If the AI has a few good stacks but they are all in the wrong places (like on a ship, or stuck on an island, or stalled on the way to a distant settlement) then it's too easy to beat. If the AI has a good stack everywhere then beating it is less trivial.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Reworking the AI bonus system

    Ah, that explains why I fought at least 20 000 Thorakitai to take Asia Minor from the Seleucids

    Ironically, I didn't see a single Levy pikemen unit from them. Tons of silver shield pikemen and a few normal phalangites, but no levies at all.

    How did the Seleucids fight around this time period? Did they use lots of Macedonian phalanxes, or had they adopted more modern styles?

  7. #7
    synthesis's Avatar Civis
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    Default Re: Reworking the AI bonus system

    Quote Originally Posted by DimeBagHo View Post
    Vercingetorix_Defeated: Increasing the number of AI stacks isn't intended to compensate for weak battlefield AI. It's intended to compensate for weak strategic AI. If the AI has a few good stacks but they are all in the wrong places (like on a ship, or stuck on an island, or stalled on the way to a distant settlement) then it's too easy to beat. If the AI has a good stack everywhere then beating it is less trivial.
    Is that your thinking on the matter or was that the thinking of CA? Recently I witnessed the most ridiculous military buildup between Rome and the Indy Greeks. I has a spy at Patavium and Aemona and I could see the two collecting stack after stack by their respective city. I figured since they were at war, there would be a huge clash and that I could stage an invasion after both sides were weakened. The clash never happened and I chalked it up to the AI taking it easy on itself and saving the pain for the human player.
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  8. #8
    Zarax's Avatar Triple Chaosmaster
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    Default Re: Reworking the AI bonus system

    Quote Originally Posted by DimeBagHo View Post
    At present the AI doesn't get any special population growth bonuses. Instead farming levels have been cut in all regions, and low level settlements get population bonuses that taper off as the settlement grows. So it is relatively easy for most settlements to reach city level, but harder for them to grow past that.
    Which are too high imho, plus some monuments give pop growth bonuses to AI.
    There should be pop depletion problems, historically many regions became ripe for conquest because they exhausted most of their fighting manpower.

    Sparta and Greece in general are the best example.
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  9. #9
    DimeBagHo's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Reworking the AI bonus system

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarax View Post
    Which are too high imho, plus some monuments give pop growth bonuses to AI.
    I checked and I couldn't find any growth bonuses on the monuments. The construction time bonuses will have some positive effect because the AI will get farms etc. more quickly. The happiness and law bonuses will have some negative effects because the AI will set the tax rate higher.

    There should be pop depletion problems, historically many regions became ripe for conquest because they exhausted most of their fighting manpower.

    Sparta and Greece in general are the best example.
    Yes, that would be historically accurate, but I think a lot of players will be disappointed if they invade Greece and find a bunch of 400 pop settlements. Quite a few will also be disappointed if those cities never grow big enough to recruit elite units.

  10. #10
    Suppanut's Avatar Idea-O-Matic
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    Default Re: Reworking the AI bonus system

    I like your idea about AI previlage recruit everywhere. This thing also help me figure out about how to use it on PMP's player eastern factions too.

    I also thing about the new system of AI bonus dependent
    1) Historic capital, where that monument will place, mainly on economic which maybe factionwide. Large faction should have more than one and some faction should have more bonus once they expand to their historic capitals. Faction that very decentralized will not have one. such as.
    - romans, Rome
    - gcs, none(they will depend on core regions)
    - macedon, Pella
    - seleucid, Seleucia and Antioch
    - bactria, Bactra and Taxila
    - egypt, Alexandria
    - parthia, Nisa, Asaak, Hecatompylos, Ecbatana, and Ctesiphon(they should get fewer bonus from capital)
    - pontus, Amasia
    - armenia, the current capital
    - saba, Mariaba
    - cathage, Carthage
    - gauls, Cenabum(if have one)
    - germans, none(they will depend on core regions)
    - spain, none(they will depend on core regions)
    - scythia, none(they will depend on core regions)
    - thrace, seutopolis and Sarmizegetusa


    This capital emphasis on faction wide bonus and this must work along with reduction of AI bonus you propose.

    2) Core regions, new hintherland building to indicated core regions where factions pool much of their manpower(effect is local) and tax, trade(effect is local but really high) such as.
    - romans, whole italian paninsular
    - gcs, several key city like Athens, Sparta, Rhodes, pergamum, Syracuse, Massalia, Cyrene
    - macedon, northern greece
    - seleucid, no core regions as they build empire on foreign land and already have 2 capital
    - bactria, Bactria, India, and Transoxiana
    - egypt, Nile valley
    - parthia, Persia
    - pontus, Anatolia
    - armenia, Caucasus region
    - saba, Arabia felix
    - cathage, North Africa
    - gauls, Gauls
    - germans, Germania
    - spain, Iberian Paninsular
    - scythia, Steppe
    - thrace, Greater Thrace and and Dacia

    With these 2 concept will made some centralized faction would hurt much from blitz like seleucid and macedon while non-centralized faction like germans will need to conquer all Germania to kill them off economically.

    What do you think about it?
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  11. #11

    Default Re: Reworking the AI bonus system

    Many of my cities in highly exposed areas run out of people. Caralis and Aleria are diffficult to defend because you can't train/retrain any troops there.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Reworking the AI bonus system

    A problem that I face when playing minor factions is that I take a lot of casualties from fighting tough stacks from the nations that have better rosters. I use all the battlefield tactics I can but I still take many loses. The problem in the campaign is that I cant replace my loses faster then the AI can field stacks. This makes me want to avoid battle, which shouldn't be the intention of the game. If I ~toggle_fow and see countless AI stacks roaming around, the game turns into a chore. Somthing needs to be changed either on the battlefield or in the campaign.

    I often have trouble choosing the campaign difficulty. I dont want it to seem like I am just playing a game with garrisoned enemy cities. I also dont want to have to face an AI that has unlimited money that it can use to build unlimited stacks. I like to see more AI activity on VH, but the number of stacks it has is outragous. I would like to see better balance.

    I don't know how to mod the game or read the files. Maybe upkeep can be tweaked to better correspond to a units attack and defence ratings. I would like to see all temples that give an experiance bonus removed or changed. Maybe add a few more mines and trade bonuses for the weaker factions.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Reworking the AI bonus system

    I made the huge mistake of playing with AI bonus on. The AI just came at me with endless stream of full stack armies. Playing as GCS, I killed 4 Thrace stacks and 5 Roman stacks. I managed to kill them with no problem, but no battle is ever decisive because the AI can just make a few more stacks the very next turn, and throw those at you. At that point I had to give up the game, it just got too annoying.
    Last edited by yiplong; October 24, 2009 at 08:06 AM.

  14. #14
    Total Roach's Avatar Ducenarius
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    Default Re: Reworking the AI bonus system

    Only one thing to say so far, I don't think the tax Bonus on the colonies should be removed in lieu of a happiness bouns. There are already enough buildings that give happiness and the price of investment and time to build colonies should reward the player for building them, perhaps give a graded increase in cost and build time to them instead.

  15. #15
    Total Roach's Avatar Ducenarius
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    Default Re: Reworking the AI bonus system

    On an additional note I would like to know if it is possible to have the AI recruitment process overhauled in some way. It is really dull facing especially Greek factions when all you face for the most part are Jav Cav and Skirmishers, when you should be facing proper reasonably historic balanced armies to grit your teeth on. Here's an example of what I mean, and again it's the same problem for all the Greek factions after they have been at war for a time, fair enough if all they have are lower tier barracks and it's all they can recruit, but these armies are stupid.


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 





  16. #16
    TM Is Back's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Reworking the AI bonus system

    W00000000T those armies scare the hack out of me!!!!!!!!!

  17. #17
    Primicerius
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    Default Re: Reworking the AI bonus system

    I guess you won't be doing any hacking then... Too bad. I guess you've lost your 1337 status.



  18. #18
    TM Is Back's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Reworking the AI bonus system

    Poor me Is there any hope for me left?

  19. #19
    Zarax's Avatar Triple Chaosmaster
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    Default Re: Reworking the AI bonus system

    Once I'm done with XC4 I'll update the slowmod to be closer to that economical model... That should help with RP.
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