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Thread: The Myth of 90 Percent: Only a Small Fraction of Guns in Mexico Come From U.S.

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  1. #1
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    Default The Myth of 90 Percent: Only a Small Fraction of Guns in Mexico Come From U.S.

    The Myth of 90 Percent: Only a Small Fraction of Guns in Mexico Come From U.S.

    What's true, an ATF spokeswoman told FOXNews.com, in a clarification of the statistic used by her own agency's assistant director, "is that over 90 percent of the traced firearms originate from the U.S."

    But a large percentage of the guns recovered in Mexico do not get sent back to the U.S. for tracing, because it is obvious from their markings that they do not come from the U.S.

    "Not every weapon seized in Mexico has a serial number on it that would make it traceable, and the U.S. effort to trace weapons really only extends to weapons that have been in the U.S. market," Matt Allen, special agent of U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE), told FOX News.

    In 2007-2008, according to ATF Special Agent William Newell, Mexico submitted 11,000 guns to the ATF for tracing. Close to 6,000 were successfully traced -- and of those, 90 percent -- 5,114 to be exact, according to testimony in Congress by William Hoover -- were found to have come from the U.S.

    But in those same two years, according to the Mexican government, 29,000 guns were recovered at crime scenes.

    In other words, 68 percent of the guns that were recovered were never submitted for tracing. And when you weed out the roughly 6,000 guns that could not be traced from the remaining 32 percent, it means 83 percent of the guns found at crime scenes in Mexico could not be traced to the U.S.
    The Myth of 90 Percent: Only a Small Fraction of Guns in Mexico Come From U.S.

    Now...why do you suppose the Clinton State Department misrepresented that 90% figure?

  2. #2

    Default Re: The Myth of 90 Percent: Only a Small Fraction of Guns in Mexico Come From U.S.

    well it is a factual 90 percent according to our information

    and it stands to reason since the usa makes so many goddamn guns-- it would be hard to find a nation without guns from the US.

  3. #3

    Default Re: The Myth of 90 Percent: Only a Small Fraction of Guns in Mexico Come From U.S.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chaigidel View Post
    well it is a factual 90 percent according to our information
    How is it factual if it er isnt true? Per the article the vast majority of guns arent traced so how can one (Hillary) conclude 90% of the guns in Mexico are from the US if most arent even checked?

  4. #4

    Default Re: The Myth of 90 Percent: Only a Small Fraction of Guns in Mexico Come From U.S.

    of the guns you trace, and you are taking a stat from the traceable guns

    90 percent is fully factual in the parameters, 90 percent of all traceable firearms come back to the USA in mexican gun crime, this doesnt reflect the total guns only the traced ones.

  5. #5

    Default Re: The Myth of 90 Percent: Only a Small Fraction of Guns in Mexico Come From U.S.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chaigidel View Post
    of the guns you trace, and you are taking a stat from the traceable guns

    90 percent is fully factual in the parameters, 90 percent of all traceable firearms come back to the USA in mexican gun crime, this doesnt reflect the total guns only the traced ones.
    The problem however is Hillary said 90% of the guns involved in drug crime comes from the US...her statement does not match the facts unless 100% of the guns from those crimes are traced and clearly from the article they are not. So how is it factual? If 10000 crimes occur and only 1000 of them are sent to be traced and 900 of them are found to come from the US...what about the other 9000? That isnt 90% of "drug crimes" that is 90% of the the 10% they bother to even check. Sorry but no her statement is simply a lie of because she didnt say "of the guns we trace".

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    Default Re: The Myth of 90 Percent: Only a Small Fraction of Guns in Mexico Come From U.S.

    Can this article be trusted? It is FOX "news", after all.
    Can you find a better one?

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    Default Re: The Myth of 90 Percent: Only a Small Fraction of Guns in Mexico Come From U.S.

    Quote Originally Posted by MaximiIian View Post
    Can this article be trusted? It is FOX "news", after all.
    Can you find a better one?
    So find a source to disprove the idea. Merely being from a source you do not like is not meaningful to the conversation.

    I could dismiss the statements from Sec. Clinton with the same rationale - why should we take the words of the administration? They cannot be trusted!

    This illogical trashing of sources is only a debating point to avoid the actual issues.

    btw -- where is it established that FOX News is not a credible news source? I must have missed that important bit of information. I might have been reading my NRA newsletter or something at the time.
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    Default Re: The Myth of 90 Percent: Only a Small Fraction of Guns in Mexico Come From U.S.

    As much as Fox news is the bane of humanity, it is the quote that is important, thus the news station is irelavant.

  9. #9

    Default Re: The Myth of 90 Percent: Only a Small Fraction of Guns in Mexico Come From U.S.

    So you're saying Mexico has its own weapon industry?

    The US is the biggest arms dealer in the world and when guns are not 'traceable' doesn't mean that they didn't came out of the US.

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    Default Re: The Myth of 90 Percent: Only a Small Fraction of Guns in Mexico Come From U.S.

    Quote Originally Posted by Homeros View Post
    The US is the biggest arms dealer in the world and when guns are not 'traceable' doesn't mean that they didn't came out of the US.
    It doesn't mean that they did either. Guns are smuggled from all over South America and the USA. To say it's just the USA is erroneous.
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  11. #11

    Default Re: The Myth of 90 Percent: Only a Small Fraction of Guns in Mexico Come From U.S.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nikos View Post
    It doesn't mean that they did either. Guns are smuggled from all over South America and the USA. To say it's just the USA is erroneous.
    I didn't say its just the USA. But the US are THE major player when it comes to (small) arms.

    You should check on a dude called Viktor Bout - one of the worst death-dealers in the world. The US had no problem in doing business with the man

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    Default Re: The Myth of 90 Percent: Only a Small Fraction of Guns in Mexico Come From U.S.

    Quote Originally Posted by Homeros View Post
    I didn't say its just the USA. But the US are THE major player when it comes to (small) arms.

    You should check on a dude called Viktor Bout - one of the worst death-dealers in the world. The US had no problem in doing business with the man
    Have any evidence for your claim?
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  13. #13

    Default Re: The Myth of 90 Percent: Only a Small Fraction of Guns in Mexico Come From U.S.

    I suspected there was something amiss about the claim, but didn't want to say anything without further evidence. Though frankly I considered 90% of guns in Mexico being from the US as a tad unrealistic as a whole.
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  14. #14

    Default Re: The Myth of 90 Percent: Only a Small Fraction of Guns in Mexico Come From U.S.

    read this when it came out and was waiting to use it when someone quoted the 90% figure again. Oh well thanks for posting it.

    some interesting points in the article:

    So why would the Mexican drug cartels, which last year grossed between $17 billion and $38 billion, bother buying single-shot rifles, and force thousands of unknown "straw" buyers in the U.S. through a government background check, when they can buy boatloads of fully automatic M-16s and assault rifles from China, Israel or South Africa?

    Alberto Islas, a security consultant who advises the Mexican government, says the drug cartels are using the Guatemalan border to move black market weapons. Some are left over from the Central American wars the United States helped fight; others, like the grenades and launchers, are South Korean, Israeli and Spanish. Some were legally supplied to the Mexican government; others were sold by corrupt military officers or officials.
    "These kinds of guns -- the auto versions of these guns -- they are not coming from El Paso," he said. "They are coming from other sources. They are brought in from Guatemala. They are brought in from places like China. They are being diverted from the military. But you don't get these guns from the U.S."

    Some guns, he said, "are legitimately shipped to the government of Mexico, by Colt, for example, in the United States. They are approved by the U.S. government for use by the Mexican military service. The guns end up in Mexico that way -- the fully auto versions -- they are not smuggled in across the river."

  15. #15

    Default Re: The Myth of 90 Percent: Only a Small Fraction of Guns in Mexico Come From U.S.

    fox news got into a court battle

    they won the court battle saying they did not have any obligation to tell the truth because they were an entertainment source not a news source

    http://www.organicconsumers.org/rbgh/fox-news.cfm

    fox won the case by saying the media has no obligation to truth

    they admitted they lie constantly yet fools still think them a good news station because they lie the way you like.

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    Default Re: The Myth of 90 Percent: Only a Small Fraction of Guns in Mexico Come From U.S.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chaigidel View Post
    fox news got into a court battle

    they won the court battle saying they did not have any obligation to tell the truth because they were an entertainment source not a news source

    http://www.organicconsumers.org/rbgh/fox-news.cfm

    fox won the case by saying the media has no obligation to truth

    they admitted they lie constantly yet fools still think them a good news station because they lie the way you like.
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    You need to better than that. Local station decisions and lawyers arguing in court are not corporate policy for the national news. I do not care that the station is corporate owned. Also -- where is the admission "they lie constantly"? I also agree that there is no legal obligation for the media to tell the truth. Arguing such a point does not mean that they lie. There is a difference between legal obligation and actual acts.
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  17. #17

    Default Re: The Myth of 90 Percent: Only a Small Fraction of Guns in Mexico Come From U.S.

    Wait, then isn't the statement true? 90% of the traceable firearms were from the US.
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  18. #18

    Default Re: The Myth of 90 Percent: Only a Small Fraction of Guns in Mexico Come From U.S.

    Crafty Mexicans.

  19. #19

    Default Re: The Myth of 90 Percent: Only a Small Fraction of Guns in Mexico Come From U.S.

    Which still does not mean that we can't take any of the blame for the violence down there. Where do the Mexicans get the money to get guns ( from America or other)? Yep, that's right, America. Not saying Mexico isn't to blame, we both have a bit of the blame.

    My plan: legalize drugs, start growing them here, make an American industry for them, tax them, and boom, there goes the violence in Mexico and we make a profit as well.
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    Default Re: The Myth of 90 Percent: Only a Small Fraction of Guns in Mexico Come From U.S.

    Damn. If Clint Eastwood was in his prime, he'd know exactly what to do in this situation.
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