The best way to restore infantry-cavalry balance?

**taw** · April 03, 2009, 04:59 PM

Early cavalry is way overpowered. I wonder - what's the easiest way to move it a bit towards the balance without causing too many side effects?

Lower cavalry charge? Increase cavalry cost and upkeep? Increase everyone's defense? (would nerf missile units)

I know all of them would work, I'm just wondering which way would be most effective?

**Caesar Clivus** · April 03, 2009, 09:45 PM

Lowering charge values and increasing their cost is probably the best way. Also decrease cavalry units' melee attack rating and perhaps defense skill so that once they get into melee they are more vulnerable.

**Taiji** · April 04, 2009, 08:10 AM

I would go with lowering their charge values if charges are the problem.

Increasing defense will not nerf missile units, it will nerf melee units

**taw** · April 04, 2009, 01:43 PM

Increasing everyone's defense would nerf missile units, because they would get lower kills/round, and so kill-before-getting-engaged.

I'm thinking that increasing cavalry cost would be the easiest way to go. No need for complex battle rebalancing, just make them more expensive on campaign level.

**konny** · April 05, 2009, 06:32 AM

Originally Posted by taw

Increasing everyone's defense would nerf missile units, because they would get lower kills/round, and so kill-before-getting-engaged.

I take it that Taiji meant defense skill. That will in fact not have any effect on missle fire.

I'm thinking that increasing cavalry cost would be the easiest way to go. No need for complex battle rebalancing, just make them more expensive on campaign level.

That wouldn't change much. The AI factions are either crazy rich or completly broken. That way they would still be able to pay for cavalry, when they were so before.

**taw** · April 05, 2009, 05:17 PM

Originally Posted by konny

I take it that Taiji meant defense skill. That will in fact not have any effect on missle fire.

Oh, I thought he was talking about armor. Higher defense skill won't affect flanking cavalry at all.

Originally Posted by konny

That wouldn't change much. The AI factions are either crazy rich or completly broken. That way they would still be able to pay for cavalry, when they were so before.

Is AI cheating with money in vanilla? If not, it would matter.

**konny** · April 06, 2009, 05:25 AM

Originally Posted by taw

Oh, I thought he was talking about armor. Higher defense skill won't affect flanking cavalry at all.

?

Defense skill affects the overall defense of the unit in close combat.

Is AI cheating with money in vanilla? If not, it would matter.

Depends on the difficulty level: on H and VH the AI gets extra money (at least in RTW).

**Taiji** · April 06, 2009, 09:00 AM

Defence skill, raise infantry and/or lower cavalry. Buffs missile.

Mass, raise infanty and/or lower cavalry. Changes pushing mechanics, forces rebalancing considerations.

Melee hit rate, lower. Buffs missile.

Charge, lower for cav. No downside.

Attack, lower for cav and/or raise for inf. Nerfs missile if inf is raised.

Armor, raise inf and/or lower cav. Nerfs missile vs inf and buffs vs cav.

Weapon attributes, inf with spear and light_spear in combination with spear_bonus_X can massively affect causalties, especially spear. Complicated balancing of bonuses and penalties.

Mount_effect, give inf some attack bonus vs cav. Nerfs missile.

Have I missed anything?

**Taiji** · April 06, 2009, 02:50 PM

I think increasing cost and upkeep affects the player (which is great) but not so much the AI it will just bankrupt him sooner. On the other hand the AI definately is affected by recruit pools and pool recharge rates in the EDB - Point Blank's RR mod for SS does this incredibly well. So if you want to see the AI producing armies with less heavy cav take a look at his work.

Good point about cavalry numbers, that certainly affects their effectiveness, I missed that

Your first sentence in the OP made me think you wanted to nerf cavalry so I gave you a load of options, sorry if I missed the point

**taw** · April 06, 2009, 05:17 PM

I want to nerf cavalry on strategic level, so I don't cavalry-spam as a player. I don't care if individual cavalry units get weaker, or less frequent, either way here will be richer battles. AI is completely helpless against my cavalry even when it has 2x bigger army on per-cash basis, and even when I'm playing relatively a cavalry-poor nation.

Right now it's possible to win the game by spamming with the heaviest cavalry you can in every city/castle + militias for garrison + spies to open gates (or give ladders to militias to open gates, or catapults to open gates, after they're open cavalry can take the city), and blitzing with just that. Producing non-militia infantry is just a waste of money in vanilla or near-vanilla settings.

I tried SS and really didn't like it, with its huge map and unbearable slowness.

**alhoon** · April 07, 2009, 11:28 AM

Actually the cavalry in that age was
1. Able to give devastating charges if positioned right
2. Was able to fight very effectively in close combat. They weren't just lancers, they were better in melee than the average footman.
3. Expensive. To own knights, the king was granting land (i.e much upkeep). Armor back then was expensive
4. Knights were nobles that picked up training from an early age. They weren't many.

My suggestion:

1. Increase Melee power. knights were very good warriors, fought from higher ground and who-ever has seen a German Horse knows the horse alone could kill a couple of soldiers by itself.
2. Decrease the number of knights/unit. By half IMO. A unit of knights should have around 1/3 men or less from a regular infantry unit.
3. Increase cost/upkeep.