Peace at Home, Peace in the World

[Atatürk]

Is it time for countries like Britain and the USA to stop acting as international police? Surely the governments must have realized the amount of hatred which has consumed the people of the Middle East as a result of their coalition forces.

The time has come for countries like Britain and America to no longer pursue aggressive ambitions. Instead they should look at the armies of Germany as a role model who have a powerful, modern and well trained army but will never attack another nation unless it is for self defense.

The government of the USA might argue that sending troops into places like Afghanistan was an act of self defense in the "war against terror". But I disagree. The terrorist's hatred has been fueled through the battles in the Middle East against the US soldiers.

If the US soldiers and the British soldiers just went back home then all parties should be happy. No longer will innocent troops die for a lost cause and peace at home will bring peace in the world.

[Treize]

I agree a 100 percent...

[Trey]

Is it time for countries like Britain and the USA to stop acting as international police? Surely the governments must have realized the amount of hatred which has consumed the people of the Middle East as a result of their coalition forces.

The time has come for countries like Britain and America to no longer pursue aggressive ambitions. Instead they should look at the armies of Germany as a role model who have a powerful, modern and well trained army but will never attack another nation unless it is for self defense.

The government of the USA might argue that sending troops into places like Afghanistan was an act of self defense in the "war against terror". But I disagree. The terrorist's hatred has been fueled through the battles in the Middle East against the US soldiers.

If the US soldiers and the British soldiers just went back home then all parties should be happy. No longer will innocent troops die for a lost cause and peace at home will bring peace in the world.

Although true, this topic is flogging a dead horse.

However, Afghanistan is different from Iraq. Furthermore, Why do think Germany is the way it is, they chose it? No, they lost two world wars, and suffer for it. No action by them unless in a coalition would ever be permitted by the international community.

[Deep_Red]

And you have to realize that Germany is reforming it´s military by now.
So "goodbye Bundeswehr, hello interventive force."

[Treize]

And you have to realize that Germany is reforming it´s military by now.
So "goodbye Bundeswehr, hello interventive force."

They want to buy a special version of the F-35 with less-that-lethal weapons

(Well, it's actually an EW version with said capability)

[removeduser_487563287433]

Yes. So in that spirit you think that Turkey should provide equal representation for its Kurdish population and face its aggressive oppression of its minorities in the past.

[PointOfViewGun]

Is it time for countries like Britain and the USA to stop acting as international police? Surely the governments must have realized the amount of hatred which has consumed the people of the Middle East as a result of their coalition forces.

The time has come for countries like Britain and America to no longer pursue aggressive ambitions. Instead they should look at the armies of Germany as a role model who have a powerful, modern and well trained army but will never attack another nation unless it is for self defense.

The government of the USA might argue that sending troops into places like Afghanistan was an act of self defense in the "war against terror". But I disagree. The terrorist's hatred has been fueled through the battles in the Middle East against the US soldiers.

If the US soldiers and the British soldiers just went back home then all parties should be happy. No longer will innocent troops die for a lost cause and peace at home will bring peace in the world.

Agreed but it's kinda too late. The world is following the idea of the best defense is offense.

Yes. So in that spirit you think that Turkey should provide equal representation for its Kurdish population and face its aggressive oppression of its minorities in the past.

Are they not?

[Dr. Oza]

Yes. So in that spirit you think that Turkey should provide equal representation for its Kurdish population and face its aggressive oppression of its minorities in the past.

we do , and we have

kurds today have full rights to kurdish tv, language, and other things

Nowhere in my post did I say "Sodomy is common practise in Turkey" or "Sodomy is common practise in the army". What I said, and I said it twice, was; ''The Turkish army has had a little history with sodomy in the army. Then gave Lawrence of Arabia and Mehmed II as examples. ''

yea rome, ottomans enjoyed the beauty of men , and that might seem gay today, but back then that only meant fostering and raising those boys, if a ottoman ruler was gay , the sheik u islam would have his balls, and their is no proof of this except the lies of greek nationalists, and ww1 british propaganda, give me proof please

as for lawrence of arabia,

"Modern biographers have questioned whether the incident ever occurred: in part, because there are problems with the chronology of Lawrence's account, in part because his subsequent sex life revolved around male flagellation, and also, because the Ottoman commander whom he accuses of whipping and sodomising him went on to lead a blameless post-war life. Lawrence's own statements and actions concerning the incident have contributed to the confusion: he removed the page from his war diary which would have covered the November 1917 week in question."

lawrence was himself a homosexual, and had affairs with young arab boys whom he hired as asistants, this is fromt his own writings and he would also pay people to whip him and sexually torture him, this is also from his letters, he also never gave a straight account of his "rape", and told diffrent versions of it, giving it even less credibility, and so most scholars would believe it never happendend, but was a tool of propaganda to muster more hate for the turkish "enemy"

ur a smart guy rome, please do not dilute this discussion with baseless accusations

This is a common argument by the secularist extremists in Turkey. In America the conservatives declare anything other than them is ''communism''. In Turkish Kemalism the same concept, but replace ''communists'' with ''islamists''

when was the last time the communists of turkey bombed every major city and tortured and executed prominent businessmen and politicians?

the brits kinda now what it feels like, but we suffer much more from terrorism than they do, and although i dont agree with "kemalist" censorhip, i see the reasoning behind it, although in regards to kurds, and not necesasarily "islamists", the religious people do not want a iran, most are well educated, contrary to common beliefs, they want rights, and people vote for them becaause unlike the chp they do not ignore the poor people and they are known to be non corrupt

I'm sorry,no. In civilised countries one does not get sued for bad mouthing a man who died half a century ago. Libel and slander laws allows someone who you bad mouth and is living to defend their reputation. But at least you get to do it in the street. I'll take your word for it, as I haven't been to a Turkish street protest against Kemal.

in "civilised" countries (note the quatotations) people dont usually die from radical rebels, and they also probably havent suffered 2 civil wars fostered by the "civilised countries themselves"

as for anti ataturk protests, u havent been to one, becuase no one hates ataturk except pkk, and other terrorists, islamists like him for protecting turkey against imperialists, although they regret the caliphate incident, they dont hate him, communists like him for again, protecting against capitalist imperialists, and the common people love him because without him we would be speaking greek and english instead of turkish

[Каие]

yea rome, ottomans enjoyed the beauty of men , and that might seem gay today, but back then that only meant fostering and raising those boys, if a ottoman ruler was gay , the sheik u islam would have his balls, and their is no proof of this except the lies of greek nationalists, and ww1 british propaganda, give me proof please

as for lawrence of arabia,

"Modern biographers have questioned whether the incident ever occurred: in part, because there are problems with the chronology of Lawrence's account, in part because his subsequent sex life revolved around male flagellation, and also, because the Ottoman commander whom he accuses of whipping and sodomising him went on to lead a blameless post-war life. Lawrence's own statements and actions concerning the incident have contributed to the confusion: he removed the page from his war diary which would have covered the November 1917 week in question."

lawrence was himself a homosexual, and had affairs with young arab boys whom he hired as asistants, this is fromt his own writings and he would also pay people to whip him and sexually torture him, this is also from his letters, he also never gave a straight account of his "rape", and told diffrent versions of it, giving it even less credibility, and so most scholars would believe it never happendend, but was a tool of propaganda to muster more hate for the turkish "enemy"

ur a smart guy rome, please do not dilute this discussion with baseless accusations

Well, I stand corrected. I did know about the discrepancies, but I will point out the relationships within the Ottoman army were a little more than ''enjoying the beauty of men''

when was the last time the communists of turkey bombed every major city and tortured and executed prominent businessmen and politicians?

The PKK Communist isn't it?

the brits kinda now what it feels like, but we suffer much more from terrorism than they do, and although i dont agree with "kemalist" censorhip, i see the reasoning behind it, although in regards to kurds, and not necesasarily "islamists", the religious people do not want a iran, most are well educated, contrary to common beliefs, they want rights, and people vote for them becaause unlike the chp they do not ignore the poor people and they are known to be non corrupt

That's what I meant. they are unfairly stigmatised for not being secularist.

[removeduser_487563287433]

lol notoriously no.

[PointOfViewGun]

lol notoriously no.

Not really. Some of the commanders of the time apologized for some of their unnecessarily brutal actions. Kurds completely have the same rights as the Turks do and they're represented well in the national assembly.

[Atatürk]

Not really. Some of the commanders of the time apologized for some of their unnecessarily brutal actions. Kurds completely have the same rights as the Turks do and they're represented well in the national assembly.

Exactly, the Kurds are considered as Turks.

What you have to remember is that the people we call "Turkish" today are basically just the Muslim population of the former Ottoman Empire who pledged their allegiance to the new Turkish republic. A lot of Kurds helped Ataturk and his nationalists in securing some of the frontiers.

[chamaeleo]

Exactly, the Kurds are considered as Turks.

My Dad and a few of his friends chaperoned some Kurd kids (12~18 year olds) on a nature hike in Southern CA. They were visiting LA to sing in an International Folk Art Festival. In Turkey, it is an imprisonable offense for them to publicly sing in Kurdish.

After they returned to Turkey, everyone was quite outraged after hearing that several of the kids were promptly brought up on charges for public singing...in the US, not even Turkey!

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Arrest order for director of childrens’ choir
Three teenagers, members of Diyarbakir Yenişehir Council Childrens' Choir, were on trial on 19 June 2008 over performing a march-song in Kurdish at a concert in the United States. The Turkish court acquitted them, but at the same time issued an arrest order for the director of the choir, Duygu Bayar, who is still in USA, reported Antenna Turkey.



Photo: courtesy of
Antenna Turkey“A new prosecutor in the court in the south-eastern city of Diyarbakir said there was no criminal case for the three teenagers, aged 15 to 17, to answer,” BBC News reported. “The judge agreed, saying the children had not intended to commit a crime.”

http://www.freemuse.org/sw28706.asp

If the Kurds are as you say, Turks, are you not allowed to sing in public either?

I do admire the spirit of your post, but don't try to sugarcoat your country's past...as a US citizen, I promise to do the same in solidarity!

[PointOfViewGun]

The war has been going on for ages, tens of thousands have died, don't blame America for the Turkish Army's epic failure. Also you do not have more freedom, do not be absurd. You can't criticize Ataturk, badmouth the army, or talk about your own history.

Before the invasion, PKK ceased to be a problem and the south-east region of Turkey was starting to rise. Turkish Army had an epic success on that. I can and do criticize Atatürk for some of his deeds and can surely talk about a failure of the army or talk about any part of my history. I think you're confusing Turkey with some other country.

My Dad and a few of his friends chaperoned some Kurd kids (12~18 year olds) on a nature hike in Southern CA. They were visiting LA to sing in an International Folk Art Festival. In Turkey, it is an imprisonable offense for them to publicly sing in Kurdish.

After they returned to Turkey, everyone was quite outraged after hearing that several of the kids were promptly brought up on charges for public singing...in the US, not even Turkey!

If the Kurds are as you say, Turks, are you not allowed to sing in public either?

I do admire the spirit of your post, but don't try to sugarcoat your country's past...as a US citizen, I promise to do the same in solidarity!

There are still some tensions between Kurds and rest of the people. Some people use their own power against Kurds. It's a mark of the past but a fading one. Using Kurdish was mistakenly framed to being a supporter of PKK so it still has that effect.

May i ask a question which may be slightly off topic? If i bad mouth Ataturk, perhaps call him a nasty name, will i go to prison?

No.

[Atatürk]

My Dad and a few of his friends chaperoned some Kurd kids (12~18 year olds) on a nature hike in Southern CA. They were visiting LA to sing in an International Folk Art Festival. In Turkey, it is an imprisonable offense for them to publicly sing in Kurdish.

After they returned to Turkey, everyone was quite outraged after hearing that several of the kids were promptly brought up on charges for public singing...in the US, not even Turkey!

They are allowed to sing publicly, just not in Kurdish. If a Turkish person did the same he would also be punished.

[removeduser_487563287433]

Not really. Some of the commanders of the time apologized for some of their unnecessarily brutal actions. Kurds completely have the same rights as the Turks do and they're represented well in the national assembly.

And how about the Armenian Genocide?

[Atatürk]

And how about the Armenian Genocide?

It wasn't a genocide.

What about the genocide the British "soldiers" committed on the indigenous people of Africa?

[removeduser_487563287433]

It wasn't a genocide.

What about the genocide the British "soldiers" committed on the indigenous people of Africa?

The difference is that the United Kingdom isn't going to prosecute you for publishing a book about it.

[PointOfViewGun]

And how about the Armenian Genocide?

You should go back to the genocide thread then. The thread died when some of the people that believe in the so-called "Armenian Genocide" couldn't answer some very concrete questions.

Which book is it that was banned it Turkey about the Armenian issue? I can give you some book names that were banned and burned by the Armenian government because it was undermining their claim. Turkey itself does not deny the deaths of thousands of Armenians. That happened. But no genocide occurred.

[dogukan]

You should go back to the genocide thread then. The thread died when some of the people that believe in the so-called "Armenian Genocide" couldn't answer some very concrete questions.

Which book is it that was banned it Turkey about the Armenian issue? I can give you some book names that were banned and burned by the Armenian government because it was undermining their claim. Turkey itself does not deny the deaths of thousands of Armenians. That happened. But no genocide occurred.

Exactly