Church Tithes in Germany...?

[Hardrada992]

This is aimed both at Germans who know how this system works and to anyone who has an opinion as to the separation of Church and State.

I recently learned about the existence of a Government run Church tithe system in Germany that exists today. What I've been told is that unless you officially declare yourself to be an atheist the government essentially taxes you and gives that money to your church.
I'm told that if you declare yourself to be an atheist you are unable to get married in a Church or to be buried in certain graveyards.

How exactly does this work? Do you declare what Church you belong to? What about Jews or Muslims? Are these religions included in the Government tax?

How is this justified? To my American sensibilities this seems to be wildly out of line with the Democratic ideal that is the Separation of Church and State.

Is there opposition to this system? Does it come (if at all) from both atheists and religious types?
What do you think about it? For or against?

Please enlighten me.

[razor-]

It is roughly the same in Denmark with the Folkekirke (Peoples Church). You pay a few taxes to the Church Ministry and then you are allowed to use all of the state churches functions (bear in mind that European churches don't take on so many social responsibilities as a lot of American ones do). Also here you can choose not to pay and cancel your membership, but there will be some restrictions on the services then. The Peoples Church here is strictly Lutheran, and therefore most muslims and catholics choose not to pay Church tax.

For you as an American it probably seems weird, but you have to remember that my country was not founded on the ideas of liberalism. Democracy and modernisation has been something we have gradually achieved and as a result we still have a lot of things that Americans consider old-fashioned and limiting for freedom as Monarchy, conscription and of course state religions as we are debatting here.

[seal]

I and my wife have argued about this for years. She is a reformed German (one too many American "injections," I suppose), but she hasn't given up on taxpayer-backed churches, as a symbol of German culture, and whatnot.

The whole notion is abhorent to me, but different strokes for different folks. If German citizens really detested the idea, they would politically get rid of it.

[Viking Prince]

My understanding regarding Denmark is that the government does help out financially with the building of non-Lutheran facilites for Jews and Moslems. How much help and how often, I do not know.

Again, this is a misunderstanding of what seperation of church and state means. The government is not promoting a single church and commanding citizen support throught thoughts, words, and deeds.

Those opposed to churches should not be believed when they make the claim that this violates seperation. They wish to obliterate the churches and take the convenient debating points opportunisticly only.

[razor-]

My understanding regarding Denmark is that the government does help out financially with the building of non-Lutheran facilites for Jews and Moslems. How much help and how often, I do not know.

Probably true, but I don't think it is much they get. The goverments relationship to a lot of muslim organisations has not been so good in recent years. Personally I don't think jews, muslims or catholics should get anything, the official religion here is Protestantism and if you don't want to be a member you can just cancel it. My family does have some catholics who have lived just fine without their membership.

So there is in fact no one Church that is favored? If indeed Muslims and Jews are benefited by this as well then I suppose there is no real problem, but it still seems quite odd to me.

In America you can belong to a Church and participate in Church functions regardless of whether or not you wish to donate money. It seems a little like buying your way into a social club, which is odd. The fact that Germans are essentially forced to give money seems as though it would cause more dissent, although I do grasp the power of tradition in Germany, so in a way it makes sense that people go along with it.

While I don't know how strict they are in Germany, here you can receive most services without paying church taxes anyway. My catholic granfather even had his funeral at a state church and he never payed a dime to the ministry. Kinda unfair when I think about it.

What I think you need to remember is that USA was founded without an official religion while most European countries has had one through centuries, it is tradition, like the monarchies.

[Lugat]

Disclaimer: This is all heavily simplified if anyone wants some nitty gritty details write me a PM.

Confession for the purpose of determing to whom you pay in Germany works basically like this: you go to your local "Kreisverwaltungsreferat", get a number, sign a paper, fork over some money, tada, you are now offically "insert confession here".
Now if you happen to be a Jew, Catholic, Unitarian, a member of the old catholic church or a Protestant at the and of each month 8%/9% (depending on which federal state you live in) of your pay go to the church of your liking but again depending on your federal state about 3% of that money is kept as a kind of fee for collecting all that money.
Some other churchs like Jehovas Witnesses or the The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints could also ask the federal states to collect money for them but chose not to.
Now, if you think this is all crazy and you'd never pay that kind of money it still gets better: You can get this church tax back when you file your tax return. Germans are crazy.

[Hardrada992]

So there is in fact no one Church that is favored? If indeed Muslims and Jews are benefited by this as well then I suppose there is no real problem, but it still seems quite odd to me.

In America you can belong to a Church and participate in Church functions regardless of whether or not you wish to donate money. It seems a little like buying your way into a social club, which is odd. The fact that Germans are essentially forced to give money seems as though it would cause more dissent, although I do grasp the power of tradition in Germany, so in a way it makes sense that people go along with it.

[seal]

The way I understand it is that in Germany government monies are given to both Protestant (read: Lutheran) and Catholic churches, including ministers.

Muslims, non-Lutheran Protestants and Orthodox Christians are kind of screwed.

[Khannis]

I think, in today's logic, that is fairly reasonable to have the church tax you from using their services. What is absurd is starting from the principle that you WILL use it and taxing you without asking.

The priest's money has to come from somewhere, you know... But I still think it's just moneysink for stupid people.

[Lugat]

In Germany you can end this whole stuff by forking over about 30€... or you keep your 30 bucks and get the money back with your tax return.

[Hardrada992]

So... wait.

You can pay, which gets you membership with the church, but at the end you can get all that money back, and still be a part of the church? How does the church get any money that they can actually hold on too?

[Lugat]

I found a nice little document on the web that explains this whole mess better than I could do
http://www.steuer-forum-kirche.de/church-tax.pdf

And on the getting money back stuff, I said I'm simplifiying, right?
Actually, you don't get your money back but don't pay taxes for an amount equal to the amount of church taxes you paid. German tax laws are complicated.

[Kopis]

You state to which community you belong. Taxes are collected for Catholics and Protestants (all except so called Independent Churches). There are no Taxes collected for being member of a mosque or a synagogue. I also think that taxes are collected for the Orthodox Church but I am not sure about this.

If you do not want to pay taxes you do not join a church community or you get out of it. You do not have to declare why nor do you have to state that you are atheist. Many Germans go to church without paying (especially protestants) to save the buck.

[Lugat]

You pay church taxes if you are Jewish (though it's called "Kultussteuer") if you are a member of the Orthodox Church you don't have to pay church taxes.