Cavalry death rate

[Vercingetorix_Defeated]

I was kind of wondering, where is it in the statistics of XGM that makes cavalry die so fast?

In various cavalry battles I've noticed that 300 or more cavalry can within a minute or so, but even the lowest grade infantry would take much longer.

The defense values and such are the same, plenty of cavalry have high defense values, but they seem to die much faster than infantry in my experience. For example, I attacked a unit of Companion Cavalry, heavily armored elite cavalry, with my Galatian cavalry, an unarmored medium grade cavalry, and for some reason the Galatians slaughtered the Companions. Killing all 120 Companion cavalry took a very small amount of time, despite them being only engaged by 120 of my own cavalry.

Is there some hidden statistic that makes cavalry die so much faster to kill in pitched battle?

(note that I'm not saying this is unbalanced, just curious about it so I can change the values and see what it does)

[Phunkracy]

That's because one cavalryman can be engaged by few foes, due it's size.

[Vercingetorix_Defeated]

Ah yes, that's got to be it.

Hmm, I wonder if raising the defense value of cavalry could negate this. I'll try it out on a few units and see how it works.

[AqD]

Ah yes, that's got to be it.

Hmm, I wonder if raising the defense value of cavalry could negate this. I'll try it out on a few units and see how it works.

Yes because by default all cavalry have larger radius, like 1.5-2m, while infantry have only 0.4m. A cavalryman can be easily surrounded by multiple infantry and attacked at once.

That is probably the reason why early germans mixed cavalry with their infantry, and the medieval knights usually have infantry behind them.

[Darth Alec]

Good cavalry with experience lives long in my experience. Certainly not as long as decent infantry, but they do well against swordsmen.

[Zarax]

Cavalry (except katas) is supposed to die fast in melee, they were meant to charge and retreat instread of being bogged down.

[Darth Alec]

Killing a horse is redicilously easy in real life. Sure they'll kick and scare you and be mean, but they still have 4 thin, unarmoured legs that can easily be hit by anyone.

[Vercingetorix_Defeated]

Killing a horse is redicilously easy in real life. Sure they'll kick and scare you and be mean, but they still have 4 thin, unarmoured legs that can easily be hit by anyone.

Yeah, except when the rider has just skewered you on his 7 foot long xyston. Alexander the Great wasn't an idiot, he wouldn't ride with his companion cavalry if they were just a bunch of liabilities if they stayed in combat more than 2 seconds.

When armored, elite cavalry charge, it's kind of stupid to see more of the cavalry die on the initial charge than the infantry unit they just rode through. Especially when that infantry unit is like archers or peltasts or something

Make no mistake, against well trained and equipped heavy infantry, cavalry should die really fast, they did historically.

But yesterday in a battle I killed the Seleucid King's bodyguard of 125 companion cavalry with the following units: 100 Cicilian pirates and 70 eastern spearmen.

That's right, eastern spearmen. It takes eastern spearmen longer to die in melee than it took the king of Seleucid's bodyguard to. That and completely unarmored cicilian pirates.

And, the same day, I took out 120 companion cavalry with 120 galatian cavalry, all of the companion cavalry dying in like 30 seconds. The same number of infantry with similar armor take like 10 minutes to die. The difference is too great, in my experience it makes recruiting and using cavalry a waste of time, because even when charged into the back of enemy units they'll take massive casualties and probably not achieve much.

In XGM I just use them for chasing down routing enemies. Even the lowest grade spearmen, like Eastern spearmen or indian spearmen, inflict stupidly high casualites on well armored cavalry (as exemplified by my tiny group of eastern spearmen destroying the 125 strong general's bodyguard)

[Sextus Molestus]

About the whole your Galatian cavalry killing the Companions...this could be due in part to the charge bonus, if you were charging.

Anyway, I find that cavalry are still very useful in XGM, though I agree they were nerfed from their original vanilla version. I almost like them better this way because I think it helps to make the game more realistic...after all, as Darth Alec said, they're very exposed (except for cataphracts, perhaps). Therefore, I use them for two things:

1) Chasing Enemy Routers

No, I do not mean trying to destroy the enemy's internet access (sorry, corny joke), but rather killing fleeing units. Infantry just can't do the job effectively, even when you're using light infantry to chase slower heavy infantry. When I'm not employing them already in battle, I'll send my cavalry to catch any units that flee, and send all of them to catch fleeing units when I've beaten the enemy.

2) Hammer & Anvil

Cavalry can be amazingly effective as the hammer, even in XGM. You just have to know when to actually charge them. I myself am not an expert at this, but usually when an enemy unit has been wavering for more than thirty seconds, and aren't full strength nor spearmen, I'll hit them from a side I'm not already attacking with infantry. This will usually cause a rout. Using them against enemies who aren't wavering (even shaken ones) usually doesn't work, and gets a lot of cavalrymen killed.

[Vercingetorix_Defeated]

Yeah, I know to avoid spearmen with cavalry. Problem is, the vast majority of enemy infantry in my experience are spearmen. Even the cheapest stuff, like spearmen warbands, indian spearmen, eastern spearmen, doryphoroi, vigiles...they all have spears.

Which makes charging them, even from behind with elite cavalry, pointless because of the high casualties they sustain.

Anyway, I'll try playing with the statistics and see how it goes. Ideally, I'm trying to make it so that low grade infantry will rout when charged by hundreds of elite cavalry from behind. Because otherwise Alexander the Great would have met a premature death charging into low quality Persian spearmen from behind

[silentsam74]

Here is a pretty good charging lesson.

http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=103172

The units are different because he's showing with EB units but the type (heavy, medium, light) is more important than any particular unit. I consider myself a pretty good 'horseman' but there are still things here that I really didn't know.

[Scutarii]

Well, the thing is, in XGM infantry formation density if much higher on average, decreasing the effectiveness of cavalry charges... Personally, increasing charge bonuses across the board would be a good move, they're charge is far too weak now...

[Zarax]

You might end up unbalancing things though...
Just think about reduced accuracy and the horse archer beefing up...

[Scutarii]

True... But you don't know until you try, so its worth a shot. Lots of other mods have huge charge bonuses to better reflect that cavalry was good on the charge, and not really in a melee (generally). RTR, EB, RS...

[DimeBagHo]

I think cavalry charge bonuses could do with some revision. Personally I haven't had any problems using cavalry against spearmen. Common sense tactics work well - don't charge them unless they are otherwise engaged, and don't stay in melee after the charge bonus wears off.

As for cavalry vs cavalry, a lot will depend on how the engagement begins. If one cavalry unit charges another cavalry unit from behind, or from the left, then the charging unit gets a big attack bonus, and the charged unit suffers a big defense penalty.

It's much harder for cavalry to turn around than it is for infantry, so if you hit them from the rear or left quadrants their defense stat will not count at all.

*edit* - BTW this is one of the reasons why I am not wild about using very high defense scores. You get totally different results from hitting the same unit on the left flank rather than the right flank.

[Balikedes]

I think cavalry charge bonuses could do with some revision. Personally I haven't had any problems using cavalry against spearmen. Common sense tactics work well - don't charge them unless they are otherwise engaged, and don't stay in melee after the charge bonus wears off.

As for cavalry vs cavalry, a lot will depend on how the engagement begins. If one cavalry unit charges another cavalry unit from behind, or from the left, then the charging unit gets a big attack bonus, and the charged unit suffers a big defense penalty.

It's much harder for cavalry to turn around than it is for infantry, so if you hit them from the rear or left quadrants their defense stat will not count at all.

*edit* - BTW this is one of the reasons why I am not wild about using very high defense scores. You get totally different results from hitting the same unit on the left flank rather than the right flank.

Hey DBH,
You might want to take a look at the charge bonuses and attack rates in the latest version of Command. The cavalry in my game has been working great, the initial impact (when used correctly) will cause routes and you only lose a few horse, but sustained hand-to-hand causes heavy losses.
I've given graded bonuses to the different tiers of cav i.e., Companion Cav get a CB of 22 vs. Medium Greek Cav CB of 14.

[Anakarsis]

Cavalry is severely underpowered. I know that it was very powerful in vanilla but many mods has gone to the oppoite, and equally bad, extreme. Barbarian ligth cavalry could be crap against spear formations ok, but it should roll over ANY skirmisher unit charging from WHERE THE WANT, and ligth infantry like basic swordsmen or german axemen should also be mostly defeated; today things don´t work that way in XGM and i really dislike it. At least, put them all the "skirmish" trait so they can flee if surprised and not charging.

Personally i TOTALLY disagree with the historical theories of the "cavalry revolution" on the 4-7th century AD. i think that some cultures has charging cavalry for centuries by that age and that the shift to cavalry during the early middle ages was due to socio-political, and not technological reasons. I understand that this is under discussion and that you have the rigth to think otherwise, but such crap-cavalry is not realistic at all. Cavalry had their function in the 2nd century BC and it was not only making scouting and pursuing. Perhaps an increased armour skill to represent that is harder to hit in melee at somebody on a horse (those who has made reenacting knows that is true), more strength of something, but as they are now, most cavalry hardly does their traditional anti-skirmishers job without massive cassualties, and virtually ANY infantry of the same level can beat them (not to talk about the spear bonus that some skirmishers like the peltasts has, wich is ridiculous because the strength of the spear agaist cavalry is only due to the thig formation, not because spear automatically kill horses and riders. )

[silentsam74]

Personally i TOTALLY disagree with the historical theories of the "cavalry revolution" on the 4-7th century AD. i think that some cultures has charging cavalry for centuries by that age and that the shift to cavalry during the early middle ages was due to socio-political, and not technological reasons. I understand that this is under discussion and that you have the rigth to think otherwise, but such crap-cavalry is not realistic at all. Cavalry had their function in the 2nd century BC and it was not only making scouting and pursuing.

You may be on to something.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGHge...om=PL&index=23

When the battle was joined, the cavalry engaged in a fierce exchange on the flanks. Polybius describes the scene, writing that "When the Hispanic and Celtic horses on the left wing came into collision with the Roman cavalry, the struggle that ensued was truly barbaric." Here, the Carthaginian cavalry quickly overpowered the inferior Romans on the right flank and routed them. A portion of the Carthaginian cavalry then detached itself from the Carthaginian left flank and made a wide circling pivot to the Roman right-flank, where it fell upon the rear of the Roman cavalry. The Roman cavalry was immediately dispersed as the Carthaginians fell upon them and began "cutting them down mercilessly".

[Vercingetorix_Defeated]

Hey DBH,
You might want to take a look at the charge bonuses and attack rates in the latest version of Command. The cavalry in my game has been working great, the initial impact (when used correctly) will cause routes and you only lose a few horse, but sustained hand-to-hand causes heavy losses.
I've given graded bonuses to the different tiers of cav i.e., Companion Cav get a CB of 22 vs. Medium Greek Cav CB of 14.

Whoa, the charge bonus for Companion Cavalry in default XGM, my version at least, is like 7 or 8 or something. No wonder they're useless hahah.

I'll try giving them values like that, and see how it works.

[Darth Alec]

Cavalry do well in charges against spearmen in my experience. A few cavalrymen die on the charge (which looks hilarious), but it works. Shaken units tend to rout, if they are of low quality. Cavalry works fine. Except punching through militia phalangites.