Greek City States - Army composition (vs Romans)

[devilbean]

I'm not even done with Macedonia yet and Rome has declared war on me and landed a stack near Corinth... I tried to face them with what I had but it didn't work out too well.

I was outnumbered, but what struck me most was how my phalanxes became useless. The romans just wheeled around the whole line and only sent 2-3 units into it (when the macedonians were usually eager to commit most of their forces against the phalanx). What troops I had on the flanks were quickly overwhelmed and the whole line folded soon after.

It was a secondary stack, with the main one being north and fighting the macedonian last stand, and so it didn't have much heavy infantry. So what's the best mix of troops agaisnt hastatis/principes? I was thinking something like the roman 3-line system but with peltasts/thorakitais/hoplites could do decently well, but what do you guys use?

[krasni]

I've only faced the romans in the open field when I've had a good army. Phalanx in the middle, hoplites on both sides of it, and some cavalry in the back for emergencies. My tactics were the same as when I've fought anybody else, really. You have to have good troops to beat the romans.

[Vercingetorix_Defeated]

What kind of phalangites? If they were militia or levy there's no way they will stand against Romans.

Standard phalangites won't stand against much if flanked either.

Also, don't expect the AI to be so stupid as to send their whole army charging into the front of your pikemen when they could just flank. Hell, they don't even need to send anyone into the fronts of the pikes, they can just have them close enough that your pikemen need to guard that direction anyway.

[Zarax]

Hypaspists and lots of heavy cav is what you're looking for...
Thorakitai stands little chance, hoplites may fare a bit better but in that case you're going to need your sacred bands/athenian/spartans---

[synthesis]

Since you mention hastati and principes, thorakitai are okay battle line troops. They won't do well with a lot of principes and triarii, and not after the Marian reforms. I think javelins got nerfed recently so hoplite are better. The volley from thorikitai used to pretty powerful. By battle line troops, I mean troops that will hold the enemy and engage them head on. Roman AI is rather manic, so phalangites are way too slow to use against Rome. I don't even use them in the middle of a battle line because the Romans will just attack the non-phalanx troops and avoid phalangites entirely.

Anyway, you need some heavy hitters to attack flanks and rears of enemy units. If you have access to heavy infantry with AP attack like falxmen, so much the better. Use cavalry to kill the enemy general and drive off skirmishers. Then charge your cavalry into weaker units like the hastati or principes that have suffered a lot of casualties. Whittling down the enemy like this will reduce the enemy morale.

[Vercingetorix_Defeated]

The easiest way to do it is to probably just get some decent phalangites and position your army on the nearest bridge that the enemy has to cross. When they attack your army on the bridge, have the phalanxes block your side of the river and the ranged troops bombard them while they're clustered on the bridge.

I've used it on the Carthaginians and Seleucids many many times, makes fighting stronger armies, especially when outnumbered, much easier.

Fighting a good force of Romans in the open field is always going to be tough and always result in a lot of casualties.

[Darth Alec]

Wait til he engages your flanks, and wheel your phalangites around to flank the romans.

[aznflea]

that tactic only works when they are much smaller in numbers. breaking my line has always resulted in mass casualties for me.

phalangites and hoplites are the backbone of your army. use cavalry to charge the enemy. since roman cavalry is a joke you should have cavalry supremacy meaning easy hammer and anvil tactics. javelin cavalry and heavy cavalry are both very good. iirc greeks have better cavalry than romans right? the premarian cavalry anyway

[Sabazios]

When outnumbered, i tend to use my heavies as center and attack one enemy flank with the rest of my army at the last possible moment. I keep the other flank busy with skirmishers targeting their most heavy units. This way you still have superior numbers at one flank. When their flank breaks, rush behind the other enemy flank en roll em up. If the skirmishers are out of ammo, use them to chase routing units to prevent them from regrouping or when realy outnumbered to attack the enemy in the back with melee.
Worked for me many times, although u might get butchered.

[Roman Warlord]

The trick to using a Phalanx is to stretch them out as much as possible but keeping a decent depth, 6-12 units would be good for this. Then using heavy infantry with a very deep formation with little frontage on either flank, 3 units on each flank. With the rest of the units split between cav/missile

This means that the AI concentrates more men against the phalanx and its flanking moves can be countered by the heavy infantry.

[synthesis]

Roman AI will just try to dance circles around a long phalanx battle line. If you keep adjusting your line you can eventually end up at the edge of the battlefield. The Romans will then just try to attack the edge opposite the border. If you keep adjusting more you'll end up in a corner and the Romans will just move back and forth because it doesn't know what to do if it can't attack you on your flanks.

[Balikedes]

Well, when fighting the Romans I try and force them either into my pikes or into an "enhanced reserve line".
By this I mean, I create a specialized group of anti-flanking units and have an actually smallish front line with only a unit of Thureo or Thoraks to keep the phalanx from being flanked too quickly.
When the Romans attack one of the flanks, I take my "enhanced reserve group" (Hypapists/Hoplites/Thorakitai) and attack the Roman flankers, once they are engaged I pivot the phalanx line around like a closing door and attempt to envelop them.


TPPPPPT
"HHT""THH"

[devilbean]

Thanks for the tips. In the light of all this, I decided to ditch the phalanx completely and try this (did it in a custom battle, but it worked well so I'll build this stack to fight the romans in my campaign).

4 Peltasts
6 Thoraks
6 Hoplites (4 greeks/1 athenian/1 spartan)
3 Light Cavs
General

(x = nothing, just used em to line up everything)

xxxxxP P P P
H H TTTTTT H H
HxxxxxxGxxxxxxH
xxxxxxCCC

Fought this stack against a typical pre-marian roman army with a mix of hastatis, principes and triarii and the usual support troops. Moved them in so that the thoratikai line was within throwing range and put everyone on fire-at-will. As soon as they were out of ammo I charged everyone in and rolled up from both sides with the hoplites. The peltasts are in front, on loose formation and are meant to act primarily as pila fodder but I charged what was left of them in the melee anyways. The general and light cav were used to defeat theirs (they had a general and three equites) and when that was done they chased routers.

The roman stack was pretty much wiped out and my heaviest casualties were in the peltast ranks (less than 50 guys left in one of the units). All of the thorakitais and hoplites left the battlefield with 75+ men, so an army like that could probably defeat two stacks before having to retrain.

[Balikedes]

Thanks for the tips. In the light of all this, I decided to ditch the phalanx completely and try this (did it in a custom battle, but it worked well so I'll build this stack to fight the romans in my campaign).

4 Peltasts
6 Thoraks
6 Hoplites (4 greeks/1 athenian/1 spartan)
3 Light Cavs
General

(x = nothing, just used em to line up everything)

xxxxxP P P P
H H TTTTTT H H
HxxxxxxGxxxxxxH
xxxxxxCCC

Fought this stack against a typical pre-marian roman army with a mix of hastatis, principes and triarii and the usual support troops. Moved them in so that the thoratikai line was within throwing range and put everyone on fire-at-will. As soon as they were out of ammo I charged everyone in and rolled up from both sides with the hoplites. The peltasts are in front, on loose formation and are meant to act primarily as pila fodder but I charged what was left of them in the melee anyways. The general and light cav were used to defeat theirs (they had a general and three equites) and when that was done they chased routers.

The roman stack was pretty much wiped out and my heaviest casualties were in the peltast ranks (less than 50 guys left in one of the units). All of the thorakitais and hoplites left the battlefield with 75+ men, so an army like that could probably defeat two stacks before having to retrain.

Awesome, one of the things I like most about this game is changing tactics when you encounter new foes.

[Grimbold]

Nice one, i tend to have a more "traditional" army, full of armoured phalanxes and hoplites, both athenians and spartans, for the flanks and 3-4 archers and some cavarly.
It usually works fine agaisnt eastern armies, since i only face the Romans and/or scythians after 30 turns or smth.