Ugg the diplomacy

[TSD]

They really need to fix the diplomacy. Overall its not bad, but when it comes to making peace with nations you are at war with its brutal. I have freakin morocco's army obliterated, their capital is surrounded by 6 stacks. I went to war with them attacking their shipping in the east indies, and they started invading my holdings in Algiers. So I jacked them up, they are on the verge of collapse, I offered them everything in my power for peace and they wont accept. 200,000 for peace, no deal. 200,000 alliance, trade agreement, indefinite miltary access to my lands for them, and still no. They are essentially leaving me no option but to destroy them.

You know fighting to extinction, is understandable if im asking them to surrender their kingdom to me, but im not, im offering peace terms to them where they end up ahead of the position they were in at the start of our war, and they wont accept. They should be begging me for peace, not the other way around. They should be doing everything in their power to save their pitiful nation. Maybe I was spoiled with Civilization, but when you were about to crush a nation, they would be begging to reach an agreement be it offer to become a client state, offer money for peace, or peace in general, if none of that worked they would become a client of another nation. Its almost as if once you go to war with a nation if they have enough hate for you, total destruction is the only path, when really you should be able to knock them around a bit, and reach an agreement whent hey realize they are in dire straits.

It seems what is actually happening in the game is irrelevant, the AI only see's the statistics for its disposition toward you and that is all that influences its decisions.

moving on to alliances. an alliance should be much more of a public opinion + than it is. Its rather ludicrous when you are allied with a nation that is outright hostile toward you.

[priam11]

Funny thing is that it is the minor nations that are so obstinate. The major factions seem to be more acceptable to peace offers.

As Austria I had no choice but to go to war with Morocco as they planted a fleet to raid someone's trade route, right smack in the middle of the straights. No one could get in or out of the Med.

So after crushed fleet after crushed fleet they refuse to take a general peace offer. I am not demanding anything but a white peace but noooooooo.

The AI needs to learn that the war is not going well and if the guy doing the ass kickin gives you an open door to peace, you take it.

[Razor]

They really need to fix the diplomacy. Overall its not bad, but when it comes to making peace with nations you are at war with its brutal. I have freakin morocco's army obliterated, their capital is surrounded by 6 stacks. I went to war with them attacking their shipping in the east indies, and they started invading my holdings in Algiers. So I jacked them up, they are on the verge of collapse, I offered them everything in my power for peace and they wont accept. 200,000 for peace, no deal. 200,000 alliance, trade agreement, indefinite miltary access to my lands for them, and still no. They are essentially leaving me no option but to destroy them.

You know fighting to extinction, is understandable if im asking them to surrender their kingdom to me, but im not, im offering peace terms to them where they end up ahead of the position they were in at the start of our war, and they wont accept. They should be begging me for peace, not the other way around. They should be doing everything in their power to save their pitiful nation. Maybe I was spoiled with Civilization, but when you were about to crush a nation, they would be begging to reach an agreement be it offer to become a client state, offer money for peace, or peace in general, if none of that worked they would become a client of another nation. Its almost as if once you go to war with a nation if they have enough hate for you, total destruction is the only path, when really you should be able to knock them around a bit, and reach an agreement whent hey realize they are in dire straits.

It seems what is actually happening in the game is irrelevant, the AI only see's the statistics for its disposition toward you and that is all that influences its decisions.

moving on to alliances. an alliance should be much more of a public opinion + than it is. Its rather ludicrous when you are allied with a nation that is outright hostile toward you.

Hear, hear. I completely agree with this.

It's just crazy that you should be the one begging for peace when you're about to destroy another faction. They should be the one begging for peace and offering you money for not destroying them.

Making an alliance with a hated faction is also a bit weird.

Also, I'm playing as France and I'm pretty much expanding á la Napoleon at the moment, but the British are not my enemies, but are my allies. You'd expect to see a powerful faction not to accept another faction next to them threatening their powerful position. In fact I'm expecting suspicion and a sort of hostile attitude from all other factions towards me...

[MDegage]

This kind of existed in previous total wars, just not as bad as it does here. I've always chalked it up to the theme of game: Total War.

However, as I have stated before, I am emphatically angered at the serious lack of effort put into the campaign AI.

Crashes and Bugs aside, the battles are most beautiful, and it's always been my wish that CA integrate a much more complicated and challenging campaign, a smarter campaign AI.

If they were to do that, Civ games would find a hole to hide in.

[Darthey]

Must agree, its very frustrating. If you go to war with a minor nation there's no way to end it without wiping them out.

Strategically speaking, beating them in a major engagement should be enough for them to sue for peace on your terms, not make them hate you so much they'll fight to the death.

[Sorkenlol]

Yeah it's incredibly hard to make peace with certain factions. Actually, it's not hard, just really stupid. Yesterday I was playing Scotland, I had gone to war with Great Britain and conquered Britai. Then I made peace with all their allies, except for Portugal. They just wouldn't agree to it, at first I thought it was something that would cool down, so I offered them a tech and 2000, they disagreed. After numerous raids, and two captured ports from their side, I was getting very, very angry and frustrated. First I gave them a state present worth 2500, then I offered them 5000 florins, 3 different techs, and indefinate military access, for peace. They declined with one of the replies that indicates they're not even close to accepting it. So I attacked them, destroyed their puny little region and that was it.

[priam11]

I know the problem existed in previous total war games but from my experience it’s the minor factions that are causing the problems.

The major factions seam more reasonable to requests (so perhaps there is hope on the issue). As Austria I have had several wars against Poland. I have offered a white peace several times and each time the Poles have accepted. Never have they offered peace though. Come to think of it, I cannot recall the AI ever putting for an offer. After the fourth war in where I grabbed 3 regions, I again offered peace but wanted a few techs to ease my suffering. Sure enough I got it.

Start a war with a minor faction at it will only end when the game does or their existence does.

So it seems that the minor factions may need some “adjusting” as it does exist with the majors so there are possibilities. It seems like they are hardcoded to be a$$holes.

Funny, I know a few people like that.

[MDegage]

Never have they offered peace though. Come to think of it, I cannot recall the AI ever putting for an offer.

which is the most frustrating thing about this, it really shines a light on how stupid the campaign AI was made.

On the other hand, I once had the native americans, I think it was the Hurrions ask me for protectiate status as I marched on their capital.

[Ftmch]

which is the most frustrating thing about this, it really shines a light on how stupid the campaign AI was made.

On the other hand, I once had the native americans, I think it was the Hurrions ask me for protectiate status as I marched on their capital.

I've had offers for peace etc. from enemies, I guess it's just rare.

[TSD]

I did some testing and you guys are right, major factions are much more receptive of peace terms. I was at war with france as well, and they had much more hate for me than morocco, and they accepted.

[aeoleron9]

The tricks to getting the AI to surrender:

Destroy their army/ies, if it's a one-region minor then use raids to bait them out from their city
Capture one of their regions, garrisoning your army inside appears to help
Sit your army close to them to intimidate
Preferably they should have multiple enemies besides yourself, and are weak and poor

If I meet all these conditions, I could usually get a treaty or even protectorate without any trouble, sometimeqs even demand a tech or two.

[priam11]

How do you pull that off with a one region minor (which most of the minor factions are except Persia, Portugal and the native tribes).

[TSD]

The tricks to getting the AI to surrender:

Destroy their army/ies, if it's a one-region minor then use raids to bait them out from their city
Capture one of their regions, garrisoning your army inside appears to help
Sit your army close to them to intimidate
Preferably they should have multiple enemies besides yourself, and are weak and poor

If I meet all these conditions, I could usually get a treaty or even protectorate without any trouble, sometimeqs even demand a tech or two.

Didnt work vs morocco, they were wiped clean save a few units in their capital, and get this, not only did they not accept peace "Because they were going to fight me to the end" they were snuffed out without a fight. Yep this is the first time in any total war game, I actually defeated an enemy via siege alone, they talked their big game of fighting to the end and didnt fight at all, they just let me have their country as they didnt attack at all and let me starve them out during a siege so i captured their capital without a shot being fired. Aint that the pisser, wont declare peace, but will basically just give me their capital, ridiculous.

[priam11]

Yes Morocco is being a pain as well in my game. I could just take them out but with this era for the game's backdrop, I find I prefer to colonize, build giant trade routes across the globe and have the resources to protect them, rather than global conquest.

But this stubbornness is a bigger AI problem. Morocco has two ports so I have a single ship near each of them.

Here how this goes:

Turn 1-move my ships into each port therefore complete damage for one turn.
Turn 2-they move an army into each port and start repairs (not bad AI, not bad) buuuuuuuut then they move each army away to some other region instead of staying there.
Turn 3-repeat Turn 1

Instead of keeping a single unit in the port therefore forcing me to simply blockade them, they cannot build a single ship. And all the while they keep refusing my peace offers. Brilliant!

How hard would it be to give the AI the ability to see that they have lost the war and take the peace. One problem is that they have 3 stacks of troops floating around the desert. Maybe the AI uses that as I gauge. Will need to find that out.

[aeoleron9]

Yep they seem to take account of troops in total, not in their vicinity. I got the stubborn AI while begging France to accept my generous offer when I was only one click away to wipe them off Europe, because they no doubt had lotsa other troops off in the Americas and felt they're "safe". Suffice to say I didn't bother to send troops over, and Quebec went independent.

That said, I did get Spain to spit out a few techs in a treaty, even with their numerous stacks in Gibraltar. I guess taking all their Italian possessions and giving back Sardinia made them much easier to persuade. So I think region is the main factor, if you took many of their lands and give them a couple back, most of the time they'll listen to demands and even become protectorate. France didn't have much land so is more difficult.

BTW I got Morocco to become my protectorate, first I gave them algiers before taking Morocco, so they won't be destroyed. After that they were pretty eager to accept becoming my protectorate, having literally no army at all, while a detachment of my army sit right next to them.

[Cormac]

Like somebody said about AI diplomacy skills in Civilization (1) many years ago: "Why even talk with them? Just kill them all!"
But seriously, I agree with You guys, diplomacy is still very weak side of the game despite they has been talking about it so high.
In every game from Total War series I just didn't care about diplomacy - it was a waste of time. Empire is not different...
"Sad But True..."

[GeorgiaPeanuts]

I have many offers from the AI.

Sometimes its annoying they want me to give them my good tax region for some crappy dump and only offer a few florins compensation. And if I say no they keep asking every turn for awhile.

Funny is that it is easier to get technology from them when they offer it for something than to offer something to them in exchange for techs. Every time I request techs they tell me that it is not good to get knowledge free.

[Shigawire]

You know fighting to extinction, is understandable if im asking them to surrender their kingdom to me, but im not, im offering peace terms to them where they end up ahead of the position they were in at the start of our war, and they wont accept. They should be begging me for peace, not the other way around. They should be doing everything in their power to save their pitiful nation. Maybe I was spoiled with Civilization, but when you were about to crush a nation, they would be begging to reach an agreement be it offer to become a client state, offer money for peace, or peace in general, if none of that worked they would become a client of another nation. Its almost as if once you go to war with a nation if they have enough hate for you, total destruction is the only path, when really you should be able to knock them around a bit, and reach an agreement whent hey realize they are in dire straits.

It seems what is actually happening in the game is irrelevant, the AI only see's the statistics for its disposition toward you and that is all that influences its decisions.

moving on to alliances. an alliance should be much more of a public opinion + than it is. Its rather ludicrous when you are allied with a nation that is outright hostile toward you.

Well, you can say the same thing about the Palestineans today. Not very keen on accepting defeat, despite having been smothered and strangled for over 42 years.

Of course, I agree, this kind of thing should be much rarer than it is.

[aeoleron9]

if none of that worked they would become a client of another nation

This sounds like fun, and a great weapon for minors to use: playing multiple sides of major powers against each other. If only these stuff can be modded in..

[priam11]

Man this is becoming shameful.

As Sweden I started a war with Denmark, took Norway, cleaned the seas of any fleets, blockaded all ports, all resources are damaged by raids and their only force is bottled up in Copenhagen.

Offer white peace, their reply blah blah by insulting us...

So for the heck of it I offer a peace plus Norway: response was never blah blah blah....

So I offer a peace, Norway, Courland, Estonia, Finland and Ingria: response is never?????

The diplomacy in this regard is simply broke. There is absolutely no way around this and it is disappointing that this was ignored. You are forced to exterminate everyone that you are at war with but given the time frame, it just doesn’t seam that realistic or historical.

Sad really.