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Thread: Curia Hostilia, Consulate of Ahenobarbus/Celsus

  1. #81

    Default Re: Curia Hostilia, Consulate of Ahenobarbus/Celsus

    Pontifex Maximus, I believe the second prophecy refers not to Sardinia but to Sicily. Forget the tale of Aeneas at thy own peril.

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  2. #82
    Gaius Julius Civilis's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Curia Hostilia, Consulate of Ahenobarbus/Celsus

    I have consulted that with the keepers of the Sybilline Books, and while Sicilia is the obvious reference, they implored me that these prophecies should not always be taken literally. 'Aeneas' and 'Dido' could be wider references to Rome and Carthage in general, in which case this prophecy applies to Sardinia just as well as to Sicilia.

    I have included it for the Senate's consideration. After all, it could be the clue that brings us Sardinia.
    Last edited by Gaius Julius Civilis; April 05, 2009 at 06:35 PM.
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  3. #83
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    Default Re: Curia Hostilia, Consulate of Ahenobarbus/Celsus

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  4. #84
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    Default Re: Curia Hostilia, Consulate of Ahenobarbus/Celsus

    Marcus raised from his bench. "The gods has warned us, we should send our army to Sicily instead.
    Two legions on the island will make sure that the Greeks won't attack us. Maybe when they see the sheer number of our forces they will agree on a peace treath.

    The people of Rome do not seek war, they seek peace and prosperus trade, nothing that a war will grants us."

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  5. #85

    Default Re: Curia Hostilia, Consulate of Ahenobarbus/Celsus

    But Sardinia is of little strategic importance compared to Sicily! Think of it, with Sicily under our control, the entire Ocean is ours to take. The gods has already deemed it necessary for us to take Sicily, Sardinia can wait until we have control over the larger island.

    Let it be known, senators, that this shall be what is to come:

    Twin cities set in war, Carthage and Rome
    Facing each other, across the sea foams
    Each have set their eyes upon one island
    And to each the rich kingdom's wealth had beckoned
    On the three-legged shore, swords will flash
    Fighting for the same land, the same riches
    But the Fates have already determined
    That ROME will be the ruler of the island.

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  6. #86
    Kritias's Avatar Petite bourgeois
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    Default Re: Curia Hostilia, Consulate of Ahenobarbus/Celsus

    Senators, let us not misunderstand the verses of most antiquate Sybil, least we produce the wrath of the Gods upon us! Let us examine closely the evidence brought forth by the Pontifex Maximus, and then decide whether or not the Gods are with us on this expedition.

    As the Pontifex Maximus explains, the first verse clearly calls for a cleansing of the Senate before any attempt to conquer the island; we can all safely assume that this considerable force of the Olbians, emerging out of the mountains like out of thin air, is the final warning the Gods decided to give us in their wisdom - we must not proceed further before any cleansing has taken place, or risk battle and possible calamity to the Olbians.

    Secondly, let us debate the second prophecy. I would be inclined to believe Senator Scaevus, that the Island is in fact Sicily rather than Sardinia, wasn't there a monumental flaw in the verse to support such a theory - in the verse, there's no mention to the Greeks! The verse speaks clearly about an Island held by the Carthaginians, an island desired by Rome. Sardinia fits the description. So does Sicily. But Sicily has always been divided between Carthage and the Greek cities of Sicily, with Syracuse being the protagonist of the Sicilian Greeks. Moreover, the verse tells us of Free People - and the Syracusans are anything but free; they are currently under the rule of tyrant Hieron the Second.

    Finally, let us take into consideration the third prophecy, the one about the Island of the Fur-Covered Men; obviously, that must be a clue about the identity of our enemies in the island of the prophesy. And I ask you; have you ever seen anything like those fur-covered men in Sicily? I have not! However, can we safely claim that none of the barbaric mountain tribes of Sardinia aren't, er, hairy?

    So, I too support that we sent our Consular army back to Sicily where it can be both useful and protected from a God-sent calamity.
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  7. #87

    Default Re: Curia Hostilia, Consulate of Ahenobarbus/Celsus

    ooc: it's Saevus, no c.

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  8. #88
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    Default Re: Curia Hostilia, Consulate of Ahenobarbus/Celsus

    Are we in that much of a crisis that we must consult the Sibylline Books? My teaching was that they were only to be read during the most grave of circumstances, and would say nothing about our attitude towards a small island. Also, it is not the Pontifex's job to read the books, that is entrusted to the decemviri sacris faciundis, and why was the Senate not consulted on the reading, as it should have been, for only a motion of the Senate can allow the readings to take place.

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  9. #89
    Kritias's Avatar Petite bourgeois
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    Default Re: Curia Hostilia, Consulate of Ahenobarbus/Celsus

    The Consul raises an important constitutional issue here. Indeed, it's not the Pontifex Maximus' place to consult the Books - or their keeper's, the decemviri sacris faciundis, as Falco told us he did upon entrance - without the Senate consenting via a Senatorial Degree. The good nature of his action is immaterial. Consulting the Books without us voting so is illegal. The deed has been done.

    But therein is our answer;

    The Books have been consulted. And they do refer to an island that we want to take by force by the Carthaginians. Clearly then, the actions of the Pontifex Maximus, however unconstitutional, prevented a possible catastrophe to befall the Consular army in Sardinia. He acted to the best interests of the Republic.

    The deed has been done, Senators. We now know the will of the Gods. You may dismiss them at your own risk, but I will not allow you to dismiss them at Rome's.
    Last edited by Kritias; April 06, 2009 at 04:24 AM.
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  10. #90

    Default Re: Curia Hostilia, Consulate of Ahenobarbus/Celsus

    Salonianus, if the verse speaks of free people, do not forget that there are also free people on Sicily, the city of Agrigentum!

    But Pontifex, because you have consulted the books, tell us what you would do please.
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  11. #91
    Gaius Julius Civilis's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Curia Hostilia, Consulate of Ahenobarbus/Celsus

    What I personally would do is immaterial, but I shall humour the Senate. I personally think that the second prophecy does indeed refer to Sicilia, and will give us a guideline for actions to be undertaken when the time for the full conquest of those islands has come.

    The third prophecy is too vague to be of any use yet. The island of fur-covered men could be Sardinia, but it could also refer to any number of islands we may yet encounter. Furthermore, the second part of the prophecy, about an army waning on the Northern winds is even less helpful and could refer to any number of situations, and this is only marginally limited by the naval element present in the syntax of the prophecy.

    The first prophecy is (to my eyes) the one that has a good chance of being the one in question to us now. We have had a traitor in our midst, and he did go to our enemies. Personally I think that the Gods will find ways of preventing us from taking Sardinia until we have ritually cleansed these halls and waited 5 years before attempting such an endeavour again.
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  12. #92
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    Default Re: Curia Hostilia, Consulate of Ahenobarbus/Celsus

    The messenger burst in, beaming around, having no idea how grave matters the Senators were discussing. He stepped forward with a Consul's letter and unfurled it.

    "Victory! I write from the palace of Caralis. As staying on sea in one place for long was too dangerous and I couldn't attack the beach of the Olbians, I and my legates thought up a new plan.
    The Carthaginians surely new of our presence by now so we decided to sail to Caralis and attack the city head-on. Our plan worked and we found Caralis lightly defended. We quickly disembarked and got ready for battle.
    The settlement had four roads leading to the centre, of which I chose three. I deployed my cavalry and myself with my bodyguard on the left road, my first legion at the centre, and my allied legion at the left.
    The battle began with the Caralians sending their skirmishers to attack the allied legion, but my slingers killed most of them off even before they reached them; the rest routed. I closed in on the city slowly. The fight against the phalanx at the town centre was inevitable, and I had to throw in all my soldiers, including myself to be able to defeat them. Their deadly confidence waned the moment I personally cut down their general. Very soon every last one of them was put to the sword.


    As Caralis showed very little resistance, I decided to occupy the city peacefully, without spilling any civilian blood.

    My mission successful, I await further orders from the Senate. Should I go to Sicily, or stay here to defend, attack the Olbians...?

    The Gods are with us, Marcus Julius Celsus."

    The messenger looked up, waited for them to answer, his smile diminishing by the look of the Senators' faces.

  13. #93

    Default Re: Curia Hostilia, Consulate of Ahenobarbus/Celsus

    Though many Senators looked angry because of the prophecy, POpillius stood up and after some clapping he said

    I applaud to Consul Celsus!
    A fine battle it was!
    One with few casualties on our side, defeating the enemy, and even without civilian blood! I can only applaud such actions, and hope that future Consuls will take such conquests as an example.

    Consul Celsus has truly shown his abilities as commander, but Senators, there still is the matter of the Olbians.
    What to do with them? They have indeed shown agression upon us, but they have not killed any Roman.
    Should we attack and occupy their city or not?
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  14. #94
    Gaius Julius Civilis's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Curia Hostilia, Consulate of Ahenobarbus/Celsus

    Falco had given the messenger some modest applause, but he looked thoughtful.

    "I would advise against attacking the Olbians. It would be unwise to disregard divine cautions on the basis of current success. Those who would say that the Sibylline prophecies hold no value in this case still forget that I had the Books consulted because all the Augurs and the Haruspices are unanimous in their readings: the Gods do not support us taking Sardinia as of yet. When we have taken the precautions we may consider it once more, but the Gods do not want us in possession of the entire island of Sardinia yet."
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  15. #95

    Default Re: Curia Hostilia, Consulate of Ahenobarbus/Celsus

    OOC: What happened to the Greeks?
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  16. #96
    Junius's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Curia Hostilia, Consulate of Ahenobarbus/Celsus

    Why should we take one man's interpretation of the auguries and sacrafices as divine truth? There are multiple conclusions that can be drawn from a single divination. When it is ambiguous we should then rely on men's own good wit and intelligence, instead of debating the academic niceties of the priesthood. As the oracle given before the Athenians fled their city for the safety of their wooden walls, there are different interpretations of a single event. We should not be tied down my what one single man, not given his position through study and knowledge about such matters, but appointed to it by the Senate, says is the gods's will. Therefore, I humbly, reverently and piously ask the Senate to disregard any prophecies brought before which are in any case ambiguous or debatable as in how to proceed, they only muddy the water. Instead, rely on your native Roman wit and cunning.
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  17. #97

    Default Re: Curia Hostilia, Consulate of Ahenobarbus/Celsus

    Stay your tongue Macerinus for what you speak is heresy of the greatest form! You would rather hurl the gods out from your life, to live a life without a responsibility to them, to live life without their guidance!

    You say you reverently ask the Senate to disregard the prophecies from the Sibylline Books when these are the holiest of words that has been entrusted to us? Where is the reverence in that I ask?

    WHERE?

    Your words, words of heresy, are beyond the crimes of a mortal. Your transgression against the gods will not stand unpunished. I, Turnus Rutulus Saevus, former Pontifex Maximus and current Praetor, call you to stand before both the Laws of our State as well as the Laws of the Gods for what you have DARED to utter.

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  18. #98

    Default Re: Curia Hostilia, Consulate of Ahenobarbus/Celsus

    @lord kal, see post 67

    IC:

    Popillius sat quietly. He did not know much of these divine oracles, he would not take part in this debating, for he thought he lacked the knowledge...
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  19. #99
    Kritias's Avatar Petite bourgeois
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    Default Re: Curia Hostilia, Consulate of Ahenobarbus/Celsus

    Cato Salonianus seemed to shiver in absolute horror at the declaration of Senator Geganius Macerinus.

    "What?", he almost shrieked in horror. "Do you really propose that we discard the Sibylline Books because there can be many interpretations to a verse? How dare you, you wretched reformist, you uneducated brick, you impious and indecent man to propose that we DISREGARD our very religion, our mos Maiorum?".

    Cato Salonianus spat on the floor. "You liberal parvenu!", he ended his diatribe. He then turned to face the rest of the House and gestured towards Senator Macerinus.

    "Senators, disregard this man's seditious position! How dares he to tell us to put aside the will of the Gods? PUT ASIDE THE WILL OF THE GODS!", Cato shrieked at the very impious nature of the thought. "If we do not keep in line with the Gods, then we can be sure that they will take their time to bring this Republic - and us along with it! - crushing down! Do not forget, ever, that it is because we Romans are pious and respectful to the Gods that we maintain our power;"

    OOC: Really fergusmck, your post would cause a series of apoplexies in the Senate House, had anyone possessed the temerity to say such a thing back then!
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  20. #100
    Gaius Julius Civilis's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Curia Hostilia, Consulate of Ahenobarbus/Celsus

    Macerinus, your points would be valid if we were relying on one man's opinion. However, we are not. In an unusual display of unanimity all the Augurs and Haruspices have declared this as their reading seperately from each other.

    I will readily admit that my personal ability in the arts of Augury and Divination are limited, but I am not the source of this information. The Augurs and Haruspices themselves have come to this conclusion.

    The prophecies themselves are not what I base this caution on. The auguries and haruspices have shown the Gods' wishes, they are the primary source. The prophecies are only the confirmation of what the auguries have already shown.

    I will not chastise you for your impiety, I trust that the eternal Gods will punish you, if they deem you worthy of punishment. In the meantime, I think we have established that the opinion of Macerinus is not worth a Denarius in Religious matters.
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