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Thread: Curia Hostilia, Consulate of Ahenobarbus/Celsus

  1. #181

    Default Re: Curia Hostilia, Consulate of Ahenobarbus/Celsus

    There was no motion to take the city, thus NOTHING for you to veto tribune. NO veto has been ignored, your claim is void.

    The only thing the man is guilty of, is taking the initiative without Romes approval, that is always a risk, but he chose to take it and suffer the consequences, as has been seen the senators here in Rome wish to pardon him for doing this.

    I ask the tribune to remember that he can only veto actual motions, and in the future refrain from such laughable claims.

    as such, he is guilty of acting without orders from the senate. Now the question is, do we punish him for taking the initiative in this war? I personally do not think we should.

    We offered them peace, as a show of just how gracious and generous we are. But they refused, there could be no other action.
    Last edited by Snowball; April 09, 2009 at 10:51 AM.
    People will believe a lie because they want it to be true; or they're afraid it's true.
    Given proper motivation, almost anyone will believe almost anything. Because people are stupid, they will believe a lie because they want to believe its true, or because they're afraid it might be true. Peoples' heads are full of knowledge, facts and beliefs, and most of it is false, yet they think it all true. People are stupid; they can only rarely tell the difference between a lie and the truth, and yet they are confident they can, and so are all the easier to fool.

  2. #182
    Galerius Priscus's Avatar Centenarius
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    Default Re: Curia Hostilia, Consulate of Ahenobarbus/Celsus

    There is absolutely no need for the Senate to punish Senator Crassus, for he has done nothing wrong in my eyes.

    He disobeyed, of course, but for what goal? It was not for personal gain or glory, he was protecting our nation and his province!
    It is his task to do so, and he surpassed this task with succes! If he would have lost and if his army was defeated or worse, slaughtered, what I would not expect to happen with such a capable general at their side, then it would have been different.
    Then, he would have had the deaths of all those men on his shoulders, and then he would have to be stripped off rank.

    The situation which we are in, and which he was in at that moment demand milder judgement.

    Also, as Senator Clarus said just now, there was only debate, and no actual motion on this matter, so there was nothing that your veto could do, good colleague.

  3. #183

    Default Re: Curia Hostilia, Consulate of Ahenobarbus/Celsus

    Praetor Geganius, does the law say anything about taking cities next to theirs?

    And Senators, if there was indeed no motion, his action was illegal.
    Yes or no?

    Without saying that you would pardon him or not:
    was his action illegal: yes or no?
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  4. #184
    Galerius Priscus's Avatar Centenarius
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    Default Re: Curia Hostilia, Consulate of Ahenobarbus/Celsus

    His action has shown a gap in our Constitution. We cannot actually tell, since our laws were made when we did not own any provinces outside Italy, and in such circumstances as he was in, I would have done the same in his place.

    I say that it is not completely illegal, and that you are out of order with these futile accusations, Tribune Popilius.

  5. #185
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    Default Re: Curia Hostilia, Consulate of Ahenobarbus/Celsus

    A man enters the curia and recognizes the men arguing. It looks like nothing has changed in the time of my absence. The same people are still holding there powers over the senate.

    Sextius walks to the seat he once claimed to be his and sat down. How confidencal this seat feelt like.
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  6. #186

    Default Re: Curia Hostilia, Consulate of Ahenobarbus/Celsus

    OoC: Would that be the sextius who ran to carthage? or the one who gave up his consuls seat?
    People will believe a lie because they want it to be true; or they're afraid it's true.
    Given proper motivation, almost anyone will believe almost anything. Because people are stupid, they will believe a lie because they want to believe its true, or because they're afraid it might be true. Peoples' heads are full of knowledge, facts and beliefs, and most of it is false, yet they think it all true. People are stupid; they can only rarely tell the difference between a lie and the truth, and yet they are confident they can, and so are all the easier to fool.

  7. #187
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    Default Re: Curia Hostilia, Consulate of Ahenobarbus/Celsus

    ooc My god man there was only one sextius and it is the one that gave up his consuls seat.
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  8. #188
    Xavier Dragnesi's Avatar Esse quam videre
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    Default Re: Curia Hostilia, Consulate of Ahenobarbus/Celsus

    Quote Originally Posted by Elendil of Númenor View Post
    OOC: Don't know if there is force diplomacy in Imperator II, but it wouldn't be right to use it. We could do anything that way and that's stupid IMO.
    OOC: The Force Diplomacy script doesn't truly force the AI to accept diplomatic proposals, it just makes its decisions more reasonable i.e. it will accept a ceasefire if its losing the war (whereas in Vanilla it would never accept no matter what position they were in), but they'd still not accept if they were winning.

    The Tribune has made a good point. There is a gap in our Constitution for various elements of the Proconsular position. I shall view the Constitution as Consul, and then suggest an addition be made to it so that future problems concerning Proconsular conduct can be clearly shown whether they are illegal or not. Due to this being our first ever time having a Proconsulate, mistakes are bound to be made. I personally shall pardon and respect Crassus' decisions, even if the Senate will not.

    As for my fellow Consul's request to remove the Olbian threat by defeating their army and capturing their city with the help of extra troops, I would first like to see from him a report as detailed as is possible, showing the positions of the enemy troops, and what their armies consist of.
    Last edited by Xavier Dragnesi; April 09, 2009 at 01:58 PM.

  9. #189
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    Default Re: Curia Hostilia, Consulate of Ahenobarbus/Celsus

    Quote Originally Posted by Valerius Tiberius View Post
    Praetor Geganius, does the law say anything about taking cities next to theirs?

    And Senators, if there was indeed no motion, his action was illegal.
    Yes or no?

    Without saying that you would pardon him or not:
    was his action illegal: yes or no?
    I say it was not!

    Can you not see you fool? The man was attacked? Would you have the legion throw down their weapons and line up for the slaughter?

    Damn your ignorance, man! You endanger this Republic with every word you breathe! If you do not withdraw your veto immediately, I shall start a motion to have you removed of your post!

    The Senate must pardon the Proconsul immediately. I applaud your sentiment, Consul Ahenobarbus, though you should know that your pardon carries no weight.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rebel Jeb View Post
    Hah, you're always so helpful to threads Winter. No wonder you got citizen!


  10. #190

    Default Re: Curia Hostilia, Consulate of Ahenobarbus/Celsus

    I stand by Lepidus completely on this matter.
    People will believe a lie because they want it to be true; or they're afraid it's true.
    Given proper motivation, almost anyone will believe almost anything. Because people are stupid, they will believe a lie because they want to believe its true, or because they're afraid it might be true. Peoples' heads are full of knowledge, facts and beliefs, and most of it is false, yet they think it all true. People are stupid; they can only rarely tell the difference between a lie and the truth, and yet they are confident they can, and so are all the easier to fool.

  11. #191
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    Default Re: Curia Hostilia, Consulate of Ahenobarbus/Celsus

    ooc where it the prove of them attacking crassus? the only thing i see is battle results no screenshot of armies moving in to his territory. I know there was that diplomat scroll but what happened to the part that a proconsul needs to stay in his domain.
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  12. #192
    Galerius Priscus's Avatar Centenarius
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    Default Re: Curia Hostilia, Consulate of Ahenobarbus/Celsus


    Tribune Narses noticed Postumus entering the Curia, and jumped up from his seat in rage, completely forgetting all the other matters that were spoken of.

    What is that man doing here! Do you have no decency? You dare leave our sacred Curia and abandon the Senate House, you insult us with this actions, you flee to Carthage like a whipped dog, just as your brother!
    And now you enter this place as if nothing happened? YOu should be thrown off the Tarpeian Rock!


    Narses calmed down, and seated again. He took a deep breath, and ignored the man, the traitor.

    Senator Lepidus is right, Proconsul Crassus must be pardoned for any actions that he made.

    In fact, he should not be pardoned at all, for there is nothing wrong in what he did.
    Fellow Tribune, you treat Senator Crassus as a traitor and a criminal, while he should be applauded for his actions!

    Good Consul Ahenobarbus, if you wish, I can help reviewing the Constitution, and see if there is anything about the matter of the recent events that can be implemented or improved.
    Say the word, and I will help.
    Last edited by Galerius Priscus; April 09, 2009 at 03:27 PM.

  13. #193

    Default Re: Curia Hostilia, Consulate of Ahenobarbus/Celsus

    OOC: The Greeks didn't cross into my territory, but they instigated the battle when I was in theirs. There was certainly nothing illegal about my crossing into Greek land, and the tribune can do nothing about that. The only thing he could've done was veto a motion on giving me a mandate to take Messana, which he could not do since no motion was given, but I acted on initiative, and that's where the grey area lies.

    And if someone mentioned any of this to Crassus I might be able to reply IC...
    Senator Lucius Artorius Cato (34)

  14. #194
    Galerius Priscus's Avatar Centenarius
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    Default Re: Curia Hostilia, Consulate of Ahenobarbus/Celsus

    Tribune Narses called a messenger to his side, and told him:

    Bring this to the Proconsul in Sicilia, it contains a report of all what has happened here, I think he should be aware of what goes on between these walls while he is not here.


  15. #195
    Elendil of Númenor's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Curia Hostilia, Consulate of Ahenobarbus/Celsus

    Yet another message from the Consul.

    Senators! I have recently asked for and received copies of debates in the House, and am somewhat more informed than until now. I read that my collage asks for details on the Olbians.

    First the field army - it consists mostly of heavy and light infantry, a few phalanx units and small number of cavalry.
    (OOC: you might not be able to see this now, but it would be logical to, as I have seen and been watching this army from the ships when we were in Northern Sardinia.)

    The town of Olbia is very lightly defended, with no walls at all.



    My plan, Senators, would be to quickly strike Olbia with the bulk of my army. After capturing it I would strike the field army. Many people from Sardinia volunteered to fight for us for some payment - a sum our Treasury could easily give out. With the help of the mercenaries, my army of true Romans, and the common sense and knowledge I, Marcus Julius Celsus own, I am sure the Olbian threat could be eradicated from Sardinia once and for all.

    Send orders to Caralis. What shall be your decision, Senate of Rome?

    May the Gods be with us,
    Marcvs Ivlivs Celsvs
    Last edited by Elendil of Númenor; April 09, 2009 at 04:19 PM.

  16. #196
    Gaius Julius Civilis's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Curia Hostilia, Consulate of Ahenobarbus/Celsus

    ooc: 'Twould appear we have a Caesar on our hands. Beware ye, enemies of Crassus, beware...
    YOU ARE THE SENATE - SENATOR PROCVLVS IVNIVS VERVS MINOR - XXX
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  17. #197
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    Default Re: Curia Hostilia, Consulate of Ahenobarbus/Celsus

    OoC: Yonder Crassus has a lean and hungry look about him. I don't trust him so.
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  18. #198

    Default Re: Curia Hostilia, Consulate of Ahenobarbus/Celsus

    Popillius was angry inside, but looked calm.
    Had whole the Senate gone mad? Or was he the only one?
    What was happening to Rome these days...

    Senator Lepidus
    He spoke very calmly

    There is no Veto to withdraw because there simply is none, as one of our brothers has pointed out. And even if there is one, it seems to be of no meaning at all and ignored by all, so let us ignore it too.

    Popillius continued, but now a little louder and more angry

    Very well I shall leave the case as it is, since all of you see no problems...
    But I propose the following motion:

    "A Senator of any rank holding any office will immediately be stripped from rank and put to trial of he ignores a Tribunus Plebis Veto in any way. He shall be punished in court after a trial and the punishment shall be appropriate to his actions."

    What do you say Senators?
    I think that none shall stand against this motion, unless completely foolish?

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  19. #199

    Default Re: Curia Hostilia, Consulate of Ahenobarbus/Celsus

    Marcus stood up in disbilief.

    Are you mad!?

    I will, not, i can not...even as plebian, and many times former tribune, support such...such...such a RIDICULOUS motion!

    A vetoed motion or law, is non existent. And any who ignore that are worthy of punishment, yes. But that is to be decided by a court of just law as you say! not here, today, by some tribune who has no idea how to use his power.

    And the act of removing someone from office can not be automatic! it must require a vote of no confidence by the senate.

    I utterly oppose this foolishness, and ask the other senators to support me in doing so!
    People will believe a lie because they want it to be true; or they're afraid it's true.
    Given proper motivation, almost anyone will believe almost anything. Because people are stupid, they will believe a lie because they want to believe its true, or because they're afraid it might be true. Peoples' heads are full of knowledge, facts and beliefs, and most of it is false, yet they think it all true. People are stupid; they can only rarely tell the difference between a lie and the truth, and yet they are confident they can, and so are all the easier to fool.

  20. #200
    Winter's Avatar Civitate
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    Default Re: Curia Hostilia, Consulate of Ahenobarbus/Celsus

    This is true. Removal from office can not and must not be automatic, and must always be in the hands of the Senate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rebel Jeb View Post
    Hah, you're always so helpful to threads Winter. No wonder you got citizen!


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