Meanwhile in Iraq: Shias move to crush Sunni Awakening Councils

[Heinz Guderian]

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationwo...,1507499.story

Its heating up in Baghdad. The Sunnis who decided to get American help to combat Shia encroachment as well as getting some money to do it (also helped get rid of Al-Qaeda by swapping turbans and hey presto! AQ is gone!) are being hunted down. Sunni leaders are being detained by the Shia led military (some dieing in custody weirdly, one last november was found with drill holes - old habits die hard for the Badr Brigade).

The Free Iraqi Government promised to give the Sunnis 90,000 security jobs two years ago, but gave them 5000 and pay them late (still not paid this month, the Shia get paid on time - probably by BACS so i guess its quicker).

Now the main tribal leaders are getting taken down one by one and sunnis are warning they are gonna push back. The Sunnis expected the US to protect them, but unfortunately the US occupiers liberators say "its an internal Iraqi matter".


Sunnis have began to exchange fire with US and "Iraqi" Forces in Baghdad after their tribal leader was arrested by the Iraqi Army for "terrorist offences". The Shia are showing their power, and the Sunnis, many former insurgents that laid down their arms, are getting pissed. Some warning they are gonna leave their guard posts and take up arms again.

My solution to this problem is: throw more money and weapons into the mix. It will sort itself out.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,511321,00.html

[jermagon]

Civil war will never take place in Iraq Iam pretty sure about it

[cfmonkey45]

Civil war will never take place in Iraq Iam pretty sure about it

Yeah, but can you say the same for an ethnic cleansing?

[s.rwitt]

As long as we train the Iraqi security forces to a level in which they are sufficently able to combat the invevitable violence that will occur Iraq will be a success. And I don't care what your political views are, defeat of an insurgency such as the Iraqi one in just six years is a historically difficult accomplishment.

[Boer]

I would not call replacing insurgent led terror with quasi-government lead terror a great success. We convinced most of the insurgents to lay down their arms, but the Iraqis never came up with a political solution. Even when the Sunni awakening troops were working with American forces many of their leaders had arrest warrants out for them which were issued by the Shia government.

[s.rwitt]

I would not call replacing insurgent led terror with quasi-government lead terror a great success.

The dramatic reduction in violence disproves your point.

We convinced most of the insurgents to lay down their arms, but the Iraqis never came up with a political solution.

What do you mean "never"? 6 years is an incredibly short time in a counter insurgency.

[Caelius]

I never knew you were so keen to see Iraq descend back to former levels of violence just to prove yourself an ideologue of a long dead narrative Heinz.

Unfortunately its far from happening at this stage, regardless of the spin given by your OP. of which many of the points raised are untrue at best.

This incident is indicative of a mainly internal Iraqi matter that is going to be resolved largely on a political battleground, not a physical one.

[Heinz Guderian]

I never knew you were so keen to see Iraq descend back to former levels of violence just to prove yourself an ideologue of a long dead narrative Heinz.

everytime i post a story about Iraq that doesnt agree with your rosy view of iraq, you accuse me of the same shiz. i quite enjoy it.

Unfortunately its far from happening at this stage, regardless of the spin given by your OP. of which many of the points raised are untrue at best.

This incident is indicative of a mainly internal Iraqi matter that is going to be resolved largely on a political battleground, not a physical one.

which points are untrue at best? Are you irked that i post a story that doesnt show happy happy iraqis dancing and hugging people that smashed their country and gave them biometric ID cards just to enter their own towns and cities?

[Caelius]

So because there are legitimate concerns for the future of Iraq, we are suddenly interested in seeing Iraq fail?

Where'd you get the "we" in this? I was addressing Heinz.

I never bought into the whole "SUCCESS IN IRAQ" propaganda for a reason. We were told Mission Accomplished once already. You tend to get more wise the second time.

Well I think that answers the question you raised in the quote above.

everytime i post a story about Iraq that doesnt agree with your rosy view of iraq, you accuse me of the same shiz. i quite enjoy it.

And I enjoy debunking the same cyclical and tired arguments you keep laying. Though I laugh at the notion that you think I have a rosy view of anything, to say the least of the situation in Iraq.

I simply don't subscribe to the defeatist attitude that nothing has (or ever will) been accomplished there over the last 6 years.

which points are untrue at best?

20,000 (perhaps 25,000 tops) Awakening members were to be accepted into the ISF, not 90,000. A number which is almost the size of the movement itself.

Furthermore, the Badr Organization has been purged from the Iraqi Interior Ministry for quite some time.

Are you irked that i post a story that doesnt show happy happy iraqis dancing and hugging people that smashed their country and gave them biometric ID cards just to enter their own towns and cities?

I'm irked that you're continuing to be non-factual and disingenuous with your portrayal of the situation in Iraq. Point of fact.

Do you even know the circumstances behind the recent arrest of the Awakening leader?

Or that other Awakening groups have already disavowed any claims of retribution against the Government because of his ties to the Baath Party?

Its very telling when the only things you and others have to say about anything that happens in Iraq is always dealing with death, destruction, or general mayhem.

[Lebron James]

You know, I always believed that 'Mission Accomplished' was meant by Bush at the time to say that the U.S. has defeated the Iraqi Army, and therefore major combat operations were over. By this assessment, the Iraq war was over four years ago. I think maybe the media and anti war groups however, took 'mission accomplish' and ran with it when reconstruction was slow.

I think its going to be interesting to read President Bush's take when he finally publishes his memoirs.

[Heinz Guderian]

And I enjoy debunking the same cyclical and tired arguments you keep laying. Though I laugh at the notion that you think I have a rosy view of anything, to say the least of the situation in Iraq.

I simply don't subscribe to the defeatist attitude that nothing has (or ever will) been accomplished there over the last 6 years.

ah "defeatist". A new approach perhaps Caelius? Say something which is against the opinion of everything being ok in Iraq, then i am now a "defeatist"?

Furthermore, the Badr Organization has been purged from the Iraqi Interior Ministry for quite some time.

Of course it has. No Badr Org members in the Interior Ministry any longer. Perhaps they took off their "Badr Bad Boys" badges before joining the Iraqi security forces? The ISCI (or the more palatable Iraqi Council of Representatives for american audiences) are where the power is anchored. Just rename their military wing to something else, and voila, no more Badr Brigade.

I'm irked that you're continuing to be non-factual and disingenuous with your portrayal of the situation in Iraq. Point of fact.

Do you even know the circumstances behind the recent arrest of the Awakening leader?

Or that other Awakening groups have already disavowed any claims of retribution against the Government because of his ties to the Baath Party?

now this is more like it. Tell me about who was arrested. Give me Caelius' view of this man. Also, tell me about the other Sunni leaders who are being detained. Nothing to do with sectarianism right? Cos that would spoil the pretty picture we are trying to paint.

Its very telling when the only things you and others have to say about anything that happens in Iraq is always dealing with death, destruction, or general mayhem.

Cos you invaded a ****ing country, destroyed its infrastructure, killed thousands upon thousands of people, took pictures of naked iraqis forming pyramids, watched as these people slaughtered each other in the new freedom brought to them. And the worst thing is, it was totally totally unnecessary and planned by discredited death dealer neo-cons who blamed everyone else but themselves for this debacle.

Yes it is a debacle. No amount of happy happy stories is going to change that. You guys really ****ed up. And i will keep telling you this over and over again.

[Admiral Piett]

So because there are legitimate concerns for the future of Iraq, we are suddenly interested in seeing Iraq fail?

I never bought into the whole "SUCCESS IN IRAQ" propaganda for a reason. We were told Mission Accomplished once already. You tend to get more wise the second time.

It's not about a want for more bloodshed in Iraq, it's about not dismissing what could potentially destroy everything we've fought for. Iraq is still far from stable from what I have seen. The hatchets have been buried, but the allegiances and hatred is still there.

[s.rwitt]

You know, I always believed that 'Mission Accomplished' was meant by Bush at the time to say that the U.S. has defeated the Iraqi Army, and therefore major combat operations were over.

You believed correctly.

[s.rwitt]

Cos you invaded a ****ing country, destroyed its infrastructure, killed thousands upon thousands of people,

Thousands upon thousands of civilians or thousands upon thousands of insurgents?

took pictures of naked iraqis forming pyramids

Give me a ****ing break, that was a disgraceful incident and the perpetrators were punished. Remember the British troops beating Iraqi teens in Basra? Now how fair would it be for me to imply that British troops were doing this on any kind of large scale?

the worst thing is, it was totally totally unnecessary and planned by discredited death dealer neo-cons who blamed everyone else but themselves for this debacle.

I'm getting the feeling you are trying to revisionize history here and say that we somehow invaded on our own and somehow armtwisted the Brits, Spaniards, and others to follow us.

Yes it is a debacle. No amount of happy happy stories is going to change that.

What about the overwhelming drop in violence that has occured recently?

You guys really ****ed up.

There it is again. If you consider the Iraq War a **** up, your country was just as much to blame.

And i will keep telling you this over and over again.

Go for it, it won't make it any more true.

[s.rwitt]

Of course it was a PR stunt, but it's purpose was to congragulate our military on a job well done. You have to remember this was before the insurgency. The subject was the defeat of the Iraqi Military.