Page 1 of 17 1234567891011 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 407

Thread: I can prove God's existence...

Hybrid View

Previous Post Previous Post   Next Post Next Post
  1. #1
    Atatürk's Avatar Türküm. Doğruyum...
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    3,235

    Default I can prove God's existence...

    Disclaimer: Theories which people have come to accept are no greater than this proof. Thanks for your help everyone because I have changed the theory slightly so that it talks almost purely about the concept of matter, rather than life.

    According to theory, we exist.

    So let's take the universe for example: There are planets, stars and black holes among other things.

    We are assuming that no creator exists and that matter has existed for an amount of time.

    But is that actually possible? Because it is known that there used to be nothing and at some point in time matter was formed.

    Proof

    Every number has a negative, and addition which is associative. For we could write and note that - = 0


    This is a good thing, since it means we can prove if you take one away from infinity, you would still have infinity:


    - 1 = ( + 1) -1 = + (1 - 1) = + 0 =

    But it also means we can prove 1 = 0, which is not so good.


    - = indeterminate

    1 +
    =

    (1 +
    ) - = -

    1 = 0

    In this equation I've represented infinity with + 1 and . So you naturally get an inconsistency when you rearrange the equation.

    + 1 is just another way of expressing infinity. If we use this expression of infinity throughout the entire equation it will balance out.

    So if I rework the first example with this principal in mind...

    - = indeterminate

    1 +
    = + 1

    (1 +
    ) - = ( + 1) -

    1 = 1


    So the proof is not applicable to every instance of infinity. This is, of course, assuming that we can even use infinity in this way.

    And if
    - is indeterminate, then the equation can't be taken further than step 2, as step 3 assumes that - = 0.

    What this shows is that assuming the existence of as a number leads to an inconsistency. Does that mean does not exist? No, the concept still exists. For example time will go on throughout infinity, but nothing has existed for infinity.

    So what does this mean? It means that matter must have been formed somewhere and in terms of the universe it means that something must have created matter or something else out of nothing.

    But how can this something exist, because something cannot exist without being formed or created as a consequence of something else? Well for this something to have existed it must not follow the same laws and rules as we do. Clearly this something or being must be transcendent, which means 'Beyond space, time and continuum'. To be quite frank I cannot think of any other way for matter to be created out of nothing.

    How to express
    properly

    We started off with a formula that does "mean" something, even though it used and is not a number.



    What does this mean, compared to what it means when we have a regular number instead of an infinity symbol:



    This formula says that I can make sure the values of 1/x don't differ very much from 1/2, so long I can control how much x varies away from 2. I don't have to make 1/x exactly equal to 1/2, but I also can't control x too tightly. I have to give you a range to vary x within. It's just going to be very, very small (probably) if you want to see that 1/x gets very very close to 1/2. And by the way, it doesn't matter at all what happens when x = 2.

    If we could use the same paragraph as a template for my original formula, we'll see some problems. Let's substitute 0 for 2, and x 1/2. for



    This formula says that I can make sure the values of 1/x don't differ very much from , so long I can control how much x varies away from 0. I don't have to make 1/x exactly equal to , but I also can't control x too tightly. I have to give you a range to vary x1/x gets very, very close to . And by the way, it doesn't matter at all what happens when x = 0. within. It's just going to be very, very small (probably) if you want to see that
    It's so close to making sense, but it isn't quite there. It doesn't make sense to say that some real number is really "close" to . For example, when x = .001 and 1/x = 1000 does it really makes sense to say 1000 is closer to than 1 is? Solve the following equations for δ:



    No real number is very close to , that's what makes so special! So we have to rephrase the paragraph:



    This formula says that I can make sure the values of 1/x get as big as any number you pick, so long I can control how much x1/x bigger than every number, but I also can't control x too tightly. I have to give you a range to vary x within. It's just going to be very, very small (probably) if you want to see that 1/x gets very, very large. And by the way, it doesn't matter at all what happens when x = 0. varies away from 0. I don't have to make

    Proof that infinity exists as a concept to be reached

    Maybe if I prove that the square root of 2 is irrational, then I can prove that infinity exists in reality:

    cannot be written as a faction. I will adopt the method of proof by contradiction, so I will assume that p/q exists. Now I will explore the consequence of its existence.

    = p/q

    I we square both side we get,

    2 = (p^2)/(q^2)

    This equation can be rearranged to give,

    2q^2 = p^2

    We know that p^2 must be even. Furthermore, we know that p itself must be even. But if p is even, then it can be written as 2m, where m is some other whole number. Plus this back into the equation and we get,

    2q^2 = (2m)^2 = 4m^2

    Divide both sides by 2 and we get,

    q^2 = 2m^2.

    But by the same arguments we used before, we know that q^2 must be even. If this is the case, then q can be written as 2n, where n is some other whole number. If we go back to the beginning, then,

    = p/q = 2m/2n

    The 2m/2n can be simplified by dividing top and bottom by 2, and we get,

    = m/n

    We now have a fraction m/n which is simpler than p/q.

    However, we now find ourselves in a position whereby we can repeat exactly the same process on m/n, and at the end of it we will generation an even simpler fraction, say g/h. This fraction can then be put through the mill again, and the new fraction, say e/f, will be simpler still. We can put with no end. But we know that fraction cannot be simplified forever. There must always be a simplest fraction, but our original hypothetical fraction p/q does not seem to obey this rule. Therefore, we can justifiably say that we have reached a contradiction. If could be written as a fraction the consequence would be absurd, and so it is true to say that cannot be written as a fraction. Therefore is an irrational number.


    Because is an irrational number it's decimals will go on forever, you could say that it has an amount of decimals. Therefore I have justified that exists as a concept, but not as a number.

    Conclusion

    The above demonstrates mathematical support for the existence of a superior being or thing which people would refer to as 'God'. You cannot deny the truth of the axioms I have used for 'Mathematics is the supreme judge, from its decisions there is no dispute'.

    I am not asking you to be religious, because I did not help prove the truth of the prophecies of Jesus, Muhammad, Moses etc. instead I am asking you to reconsider you opinions of a superior being.

    You don't have to be a theist, but try and be a deist. A deist is the believer of a superior being without having to follow rules like Muslims and Christians.

    Thanks.
    Last edited by Atatürk; October 10, 2009 at 08:01 AM.

  2. #2
    cupoftea's Avatar Vicarius
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Belgium
    Posts
    2,974

    Default Re: I can prove God's existence...

    I will only believe in god when he's standing right in front of me, says: "yo dude, i'm god" and changes water into wine.

    Numbers mean nothing imo

  3. #3
    Atatürk's Avatar Türküm. Doğruyum...
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    3,235

    Default Re: I can prove God's existence...

    Quote Originally Posted by cupoftea View Post
    I will only believe in god when he's standing right in front of me, says: "yo dude, i'm god" and changes water into wine.

    Numbers mean nothing imo
    Your eyes can be fooled, trust me.

    How can you say numbers are nothing? Numbers are the purest thought, they are the only thing that is real if we consider abstraction. I would have thought you were ignorant of God, but ignorant of Science as well?



    Quote Originally Posted by NONOPUST
    On a serious note. You can't prove god exists just because the math doesn't come out to a numerical integer. There are just things we don't know right now, and that's why religion and the belief of a god/gods was created; to explain the unknown.
    We know the elementary axioms of mathematics, they are fact, you can't deny them. Your remark also suggests that you didn't fully read or follow my proof. We know enough to prove, as I have done, that a superior being of some sort or something like that must have created something out of nothing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sefilator
    I'm sorry but math is something invented by humans. It's not a measuring stick for the divine...if there is something like that.
    Mathematics is the language of nature, it is no creation of humans.

    "To all of us who hold the Christian belief that God is truth, anything that is true is a fact about God, and mathematics is a branch of theology. " ~Hilda Phoebe Hudson
    Last edited by Atatürk; March 29, 2009 at 10:35 AM.

  4. #4
    NONOPUST's Avatar Primicerius
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    3,165

    Default Re: I can prove God's existence...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kemalraik View Post

    We know the elementary axioms of mathematics, they are fact, you can't deny them. Your remark also suggests that you didn't fully read or follow my proof. We know enough to prove, as I have done, that a superior being of some sort or something like that must have created something out of nothing.

    But how you know something was created out of nothing? You were not there. No equation can tell you what happened. Just because a number does not add up, or that we don't know where our first ancestor came from does not automatically mean that there is a god.

  5. #5
    cupoftea's Avatar Vicarius
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Belgium
    Posts
    2,974

    Default Re: I can prove God's existence...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kemalraik View Post
    Your eyes can be fooled, trust me.

    How can you say numbers are nothing? Numbers are the purest thought, they are the only thing that is real if we consider abstraction. I would have thought you were ignorant of God, but ignorant of Science as well?
    Now I do admit that i'm not good at math, i'm not the smartest around, but i have seen and heard enough of religion to make me a non believer.

    And unless we live in the matrix, numbers don't prove that god's existence can be proved...

  6. #6
    NONOPUST's Avatar Primicerius
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    3,165

    Default Re: I can prove God's existence...

    Well where is he?

    On a serious note. You can't prove god exists just because the math doesn't come out to a numerical integer. There are just things we don't know right now, and that's why religion and the belief of a god/gods was created; to explain the unknown.

  7. #7

    Default Re: I can prove God's existence...

    I'm sorry but math is something invented by humans. It's not a measuring stick for the divine...if there is something like that.
    Every time you :wub:, god kills another kitten.
    If you're gonna hire Machete to kill the bad guy, you better make damn sure the bad guy isn't YOU!

    'I understand, and I take the light into my soul. I will become the spear of Khaine. Lightning flashes, blood falls, death pierces the darkness.' , Dhrykna.

  8. #8
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Scotland, UK.
    Posts
    11,239

    Default Re: I can prove God's existence...

    " If mathematics is anything it is a way to explain things. Explaining them in a rational and logical way, but it is still an explanation provided by humans."

    Selifator,

    That's surprising since creation is all about maths and then came man.

  9. #9

    Default Re: I can prove God's existence...

    Quote Originally Posted by Selifator View Post
    I'm sorry but math is something invented by humans. It's not a measuring stick for the divine...if there is something like that.
    This. Of course maths is man made- it took people to figure out numbers, to start making calculations. As was said before, a god needs to come down to me before I believe in it, sorry but this thread fails

  10. #10
    Lord de Lyonesse's Avatar Campidoctor
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Cornwall
    Posts
    1,790

    Default Re: I can prove God's existence...

    Quote Originally Posted by Selifator View Post
    I'm sorry but math is something invented by humans.
    No it wasnt 'invented' discovered would be nearer the mark and it is true that to prove the existance of God you would have to use Maths but it seems so complex and i have a life that i want to keep colourful.
    GSTK: Richard Trevelyan [47] - Lord of Lyonesse


  11. #11
    Atatürk's Avatar Türküm. Doğruyum...
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    3,235

    Default Re: I can prove God's existence...

    Quote Originally Posted by Emperor Richard View Post
    No it wasnt 'invented' discovered would be nearer the mark and it is true that to prove the existance of God you would have to use Maths but it seems so complex and i have a life that i want to keep colourful.
    It was certainly discovered rather than invented. It's simply a way of describing the patterns of nature.

  12. #12
    Copperknickers II's Avatar quaeri, si sapis
    Citizen

    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    The Carpathian Forests (formerly Scotlland)
    Posts
    12,641

    Default Re: I can prove God's existence...

    Quote Originally Posted by Atatürk View Post
    It was certainly discovered rather than invented. It's simply a way of describing the patterns of nature.
    A way that was invented by humans. We did not have to use numbers, we could have used magnitudes, literary concepts, prog-rock ballads for all i know, but we settled on arithmetical and equational mathematics.
    A new mobile phone tower went up in a town in the USA, and the local newspaper asked a number of people what they thought of it. Some said they noticed their cellphone reception was better. Some said they noticed the tower was affecting their health.

    A local administrator was asked to comment. He nodded sagely, and said simply: "Wow. And think about how much more pronounced these effects will be once the tower is actually operational."

  13. #13
    Atatürk's Avatar Türküm. Doğruyum...
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    3,235

    Default Re: I can prove God's existence...

    Quote Originally Posted by Copperknickers View Post
    A way that was invented by humans. We did not have to use numbers, we could have used magnitudes, literary concepts, prog-rock ballads for all i know, but we settled on arithmetical and equational mathematics.
    Did humans invent the sea? No, they didn't. But they invented a word to describe the sea. "Sea".

  14. #14

    Default Re: I can prove God's existence...

    If mathematics is anything it is a way to explain things. Explaining them in a rational and logical way, but it is still an explanation provided by humans.
    Every time you :wub:, god kills another kitten.
    If you're gonna hire Machete to kill the bad guy, you better make damn sure the bad guy isn't YOU!

    'I understand, and I take the light into my soul. I will become the spear of Khaine. Lightning flashes, blood falls, death pierces the darkness.' , Dhrykna.

  15. #15
    Atatürk's Avatar Türküm. Doğruyum...
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    3,235

    Default Re: I can prove God's existence...

    Quote Originally Posted by Selifator View Post
    If mathematics is anything it is a way to explain things. Explaining them in a rational and logical way, but it is still an explanation provided by humans.
    Who did you want to explain this to you, a dog or a horse rather than a human?

    Let's not be ridiculous Selifator, please?

    Mathematics is the only subject/branch which can be done if absolutely nothing exists.
    So what do you believe Selifator, do you believe what your dog teaches you, or what a human teaches you?

    Note: Get on Xfire right now so I can put some sense into you!

    Quote Originally Posted by NONOPUST
    But how you know something was created out of nothing? You were not there. No equation can tell you what happened. Just because a number does not add up, or that we don't know where our first ancestor came from does not automatically mean that there is a god.

    I have just proved something was created out of nothing and that is what almost everyone believes in. I am not using any equations, I am using proof of mathematical logic. They can tell me the precise answer for things and to be quite honest I am becoming sick with the amount of people ignorant of mathematics, the branch which our whole world and the universe is based on.

    I know so many atheists who call religious people ignorant and stupid. But who is being ignorant now.

    Go down deep enough into anything and you will find mathematics. ~Dean Schlicter

    Mathematics is the supreme judge; from its decisions there is no appeal. ~Tobias Dantzig

    There was a young man from Trinity,
    Who solved the square root of infinity.
    While counting the digits,
    He was seized by the fidgets,
    Dropped science, and took up divinity.
    ~Author Unknown

    Mathematics and divinity are more closely linked than you'd think.
    Last edited by Atatürk; March 29, 2009 at 10:55 AM.

  16. #16
    NONOPUST's Avatar Primicerius
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    3,165

    Default Re: I can prove God's existence...

    How does this prove a god exists? This just shows we do not know how we originated. SO that automatically proves there's a god? No way.

    You have used inifinity in your equations, which did not work. That is because we do not know what and where we came from and you assume our predeccesors have to stop at some point. Maybe the universe has always been? Maybe there is a god, and he created super aliens who then created us?


    Again this all goes back to the fact that we can not comprehend certain things now, and possibly never will. Our minds can not wrap around the scope and magnitude of all that is around us. We just do not know.

  17. #17
    AqD's Avatar 。◕‿◕。
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    🏡🐰🐿️🐴🌳
    Posts
    10,897

    Default Re: I can prove God's existence...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kemalraik View Post
    You don't have to be a theist, but try and be a deist. A deist is the believer of a superior being without having to follow rules like Muslims and Christians.
    Then why should his existence matter, since deists (by your definition) have no intention to follow his rules?

  18. #18
    Atatürk's Avatar Türküm. Doğruyum...
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    3,235

    Default Re: I can prove God's existence...

    Quote Originally Posted by aqd View Post
    Then why should his existence matter, since deists (by your definition) have no intention to follow his rules?

    Why should the existence of Helium matter, it's not as if I'm going to be a balloon maker?

    Humans should seek truth and knowledge and must not remain oblivious, for if they do not, they will be backward people.

    Quote Originally Posted by NONOPUST
    How does this prove a god exists? This just shows we do not know how we originated. SO that automatically proves there's a god? No way.

    You have used inifinity in your equations, which did not work. That is because we do not know what and where we came from and you assume our predeccesors have to stop at some point. Maybe the universe has always been? Maybe there is a god, and he created super aliens who then created us?


    Again this all goes back to the fact that we can not comprehend certain things now, and possibly never will. Our minds can not wrap around the scope and magnitude of all that is around us. We just do not know.
    You're right, infinity is inconsistent with Euclid's axioms. This inconsistency literally proves that predecessors must have stopped at some point and somehow matter was created out of nothing and the universe was in fact created from nothing.

    You talk about "super aliens". But "super aliens" are beings which would have followed our rules. Three dimensions and time among other rules. This means that there must have been a being which did not have a predecessor and for this to be possible it must not follow our rules, it must be transcendent, beyond space and time.

    We can comprehend this with mathematical logic which has existed throughout time. It is the language of nature, as some call it. Mathematics is what everything in the universe is based upon.
    Last edited by Atatürk; March 29, 2009 at 11:05 AM.

  19. #19
    NONOPUST's Avatar Primicerius
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    3,165

    Default Re: I can prove God's existence...

    I am an atheist true. But I do not believe people who believe in a god to be ignorant. In a small way naive, yes, but definitely not ignorant. I believe most people are ignorant because of how they let religion rule their lives; as in looking down on gays, or non believers, etc. And how they become hypocrits in many ways. I'm not saying all are, but a good portion are.

  20. #20
    NONOPUST's Avatar Primicerius
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    3,165

    Default Re: I can prove God's existence...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kemalraik View Post

    You're right, infinity is inconsistent with Euclid's axioms. This inconsistency literally proves that predecessors must have stopped at some point and somehow matter was created out of nothing and the universe was in fact created from nothing.

    You talk about "super aliens". But "super aliens" are beings which would have followed our rules. Three dimensions and time among other rules. This means that there must have been a being which did not have a predecessor and for this to be possible it must not follow our rules, it must be transcendent, beyond space and time.

    We can comprehend this with mathematical logic which has existed throughout time. It is the language of nature, as some call it. Mathematics is what everything in the universe is based upon.
    You sidestepped/misunderstood my point completely. My point was that we do not know. Why can't the"super aliens" be in four dimensions and not be constricted to our time? If god made him he could do anything, and then the aliens made us(illustrating my point, I don't actually believe this). Why do we have to assume our predeccessors stopped somewhere?

    Lack of knowledge can make people believe funny things

Page 1 of 17 1234567891011 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •