etw Permanently Fixed Bayonets are accurate.

[Destraex]

Just reading that Frederick of Prussias army did indeed have permanently affixed bayonets and managed 5 shots a minute with them.
Not sure about other armies.... but I actually thought Bayonets slowed firing and were only affixed when needed.

[NONOPUST]

Just reading that Frederick of Prussias army did indeed have permanently affixed bayonets and managed 5 shots a minute with them.
Not sure about other armies.... but I actually thought Bayonets slowed firing and were only affixed when needed.

Well isn't that the case with plug bayonets and ring bayonets in game?(slower firing and being fixed when needed)

Once you get to the socket bayonet it would be as you say

[General_Meevious]

Certainly wouldn't ever permanently fix plug bayonets. =P

[Ondaderthad]

Legend has it that some pig hunters around the french city of Bayonne used their hunting knife stuck at the end of their muskets in case their one shot didn't get the pig. They merely rammed the handle of the knife into the muzzle of the gun.
The first kind of "plug" bayonnetes took a lot of work to remove after being affixed. This lead to the invention of the ring system still in use today on light bulbs and also called bayonnet fixture. Push down and twist to secure it.

Of course loading a musket or rifle with a big knife sticking out of the tip would have been a lot slower. But I doubt that they could achieve 5 rounds a minute with or without a bayonnet.

One of the facts in "Sharpe's Rifles" was that the elite could do 3 rounds a minute (including the first round pre loaded) using the "bite-pour-spit-tap" technique.
see: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOAWSU5_4t4
While the average soldier probably did about 1 or 2 rounds a minute in battle. They may have improved speed later on with introduction of the percussion cap.
But that's probably outside of the ETW period.

[Umbrae]

Legend has it that some pig hunters around the french city of Bayonne used their hunting knife stuck at the end of their muskets in case their one shot didn't get the pig. They merely rammed the handle of the knife into the muzzle of the gun.

Considering I have seen a boar hunting weapon used by the Czar that was a lovely match lock pistol built along the spine of a short hacking sword; I believe it (If the final fantasy gun blades had a 18th century version, this was it). Seems just shooting them or hacking them along would often fail to do the trick. more times than not, you needed both.

lacking the funds to have such specialized weapons made... carving down the wooden handle of a knife to fit into your gun barrel seems logical.

[Razor]

Legend has it that some pig hunters around the french city of Bayonne used their hunting knife stuck at the end of their muskets in case their one shot didn't get the pig. They merely rammed the handle of the knife into the muzzle of the gun.
The first kind of "plug" bayonnetes took a lot of work to remove after being affixed. This lead to the invention of the ring system still in use today on light bulbs and also called bayonnet fixture. Push down and twist to secure it.

Of course loading a musket or rifle with a big knife sticking out of the tip would have been a lot slower. But I doubt that they could achieve 5 rounds a minute with or without a bayonnet.

One of the facts in "Sharpe's Rifles" was that the elite could do 3 rounds a minute (including the first round pre loaded) using the "bite-pour-spit-tap" technique.
see: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOAWSU5_4t4
While the average soldier probably did about 1 or 2 rounds a minute in battle. They may have improved speed later on with introduction of the percussion cap.
But that's probably outside of the ETW period.

Didn't rifles take longer to reload then a musket? Also weren't ring and socket bayonets already pretty much standard by early 18th century?

[Archimonday]

Yes they do, as they rightfully should, rifles are harder to load. Regardless one of the only pet peaves I have about the game is that they ram the gun way too much. It only takes a few good taps.

[Reiver]

Just reading that Frederick of Prussias army did indeed have permanently affixed bayonets and managed 5 shots a minute with them.
Not sure about other armies.... but I actually thought Bayonets slowed firing and were only affixed when needed.

I find a lot of these claims about the Prussian super men to be rather dubious. I'm not accusing you of making it up but that there's maybe been a bit of exaggeration somewhere down the line.

I've seen and held (although unfortunately not shot) a brown bess musket and even with an offset socket bayonet there's not much room for you to work the ram rod easily. While i'm sure that they'd be well drilled it's got to at least impede them slightly, especially in battle.

[Destraex]

I find a lot of these claims about the Prussian super men to be rather dubious. I'm not accusing you of making it up but that there's maybe been a bit of exaggeration somewhere down the line.

I've seen and held (although unfortunately not shot) a brown bess musket and even with an offset socket bayonet there's not much room for you to work the ram rod easily. While i'm sure that they'd be well drilled it's got to at least impede them slightly, especially in battle.

Reiver I was actually quoting out of an old book I had. "battles of the great commanders". It would be good if somebody had a better source.

[Humble Warrior]

I like realism. It means we all learn something while wasting time playing a game... and therfore not wasting time!

[theoander]

One shot per minute was fairly average, 5 per minute seems very unlikely, thats 1 every 20 seconds (did i just blow your mind with mathematics?) Just imagining the steps nessesary from 1 shot to the next, even without a bayonette, firing every 20 seconds seems more like fiction.

[Reiver]

One shot per minute was fairly average, 5 per minute seems very unlikely, thats 1 every 20 seconds (did i just blow your mind with mathematics?) Just imagining the steps nessesary from 1 shot to the next, even without a bayonette, firing every 20 seconds seems more like fiction.

Frankly, yes! surely you mean 4 shots in 60 seconds = one every 20 seconds.
Fire
20 seconds
Fire
20 seconds
Fire
20 seconds
Fire
(end of minute)

[NovaColonel]

Frankly, yes! surely you mean 4 shots in 60 seconds = one every 20 seconds.
Fire
20 seconds
Fire
20 seconds
Fire
20 seconds
Fire
(end of minute)

I find your lack of mathematic skill ... disturbing.

(60 divided by 4 = 15. No, really.)

[Legerdemain]

I find your lack of mathematic skill ... disturbing.

(60 divided by 4 = 15. No, really.)

Er, you seem to have missed the point where we're assuming that the musket is loaded.

[NovaColonel]

Er, you seem to have missed the point where we're assuming that the musket is loaded.

No, I didn't. But his statement of "4 shots in a minute is one every 20 seconds" is logically wrong. Maybe I'm just nitpicking, it's been a hard week and tomorrow I have to spend an evening with my mother-in-law, who happens to be the most annoying person on this planet and ... oh well, whatever. Sorry.

[PGeo36]

its those american public schools again

[NovaColonel]

its those american public schools again

Learn to read, I'm German.

[Ondaderthad]

I find your lack of mathematic skill ... disturbing.

(60 divided by 4 = 15. No, really.)

Look again..

fire 1
20 seconds
fire 2
40 seconds
fire 3
60 seconds
fire 4

My math teacher used the example of a picket fence to count those intervals.

Talking about Math and completly off topic here is "teaching mathematics.."

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Teaching Math in 1950:

A logger sells a truckload of lumber for $100. His cost of production is 4/5 of the price. What is his profit?

Teaching Math in 1960:

A logger sells a truckload of lumber for $100. His cost of production is 4/5 of the price, or $80. What is his profit?

Teaching Math in 1970:

A logger exchanges a set "L" of lumber for a set "M" of money. The cardinality of set "M" is 100. Each element is worth one dollar. Make 100 dots representing the elements of the set "M." The set "C," the cost of production contains 20 fewer points than set "M." Represent the set "C" as subset of set "M" and answer the following question: What is the cardinality of the set "P" of profits?

Teaching Math in 1980:

A logger sells a truckload of lumber for $100. His cost of production is $80 and his profit is $20. Your assignment: Underline the number 20.

Teaching Math in 1990:

By cutting down beautiful forest trees, the logger makes $20. What do you think of this way of making a living? Topic for class participation after answering the question: How did the forest birds and squirrels "feel" as the logger cut down the trees? There are no wrong answers.

Teaching Math in 2002:

A logger sells a truckload of lumber for $100. His cost of production is $120. How does Arthur Andersen determine that his profit margin is $60?

Teaching Math in 2010:

El hachero vende un camion cargado de lena por $100. Su gasto de produccion es........

[l33tl4m3r]

I find your lack of mathematic skill ... disturbing.

(60 divided by 4 = 15. No, really.)

In his equation, he assumes the unit will be loaded when they arrive to the firing line.

Hence his math starts with "Fire" not "20 Seconds"

--

So sure, 4 shots in a minute if they arrive at the line loaded and fire immeadiately, starting the minute.

[Rotaugen2009]

I find your lack of mathematic skill ... disturbing.

(60 divided by 4 = 15. No, really.)

I understand where he was going with it, as he had them fire to begin with. That would only make 4 shots at 20 second reloads for the 1st minute. After that, it would be 3 per minute. This all assumes they were preloaded.

There are numerous sources claiming the 5 shots per minute for the Prussians, but they were WILDLY inaccurate when done this way. I've read about debates in the late 1700s over this very issue, with many experienced officers thinking that slowing it down a tiny amount just to make sure everyone is at the same level when firing instead of just loading and pulling the trigger willy nilly would make a large difference in effectiveness. Plus, command and control could be lost when firing this fast, as troops would ignore commands and just keep shooting. Many firefights started and would not stop until one side or both ran out of ammunition.