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  1. #1

    Default Does Capitalism Really Result in Corporatism?

    After watching Dan Hannan's speech to Gordon Brown and before that seeing some speeches by Ron Paul, they use the argument that a true free market where the government does not subsidize or favor any industry allows competition by rival companies to control the power of large companies. The fact that we have subsidized so many of our large industries and have all but nationalized them (auto, steel, railroad, oil, airline, etc) could possibly be the reason why monopolies and oligopolies have such a trend to form. The moment we get the government involved in handouts to corporations is the moment they lose their independence and their means to survive in a real market. They often become reliant on that handout as the strings attached to the subsidies set in burden and curb its efficiency. In example, General Motors, just look at the labor laws that have hindered it so badly. It's no wonder so much of our production industries have moved over seas. There's a saying that if you subsidize it, you get more of it. Take the food service industry as a point of contrast. There are many large corporations, they are domineering, but not dominate. Other than McDonald's, we have places like Wendy's, Burger King, Jack in the Box, Whataburger, Sonic, etc to compete and McDonald's hasn't always ended up on top. The competition has been plentiful enough to ensure that McDonald's is not the only fast food service that is widespread throughout the country or the world.

    Now most socialists will refer to the Gilded Age of America from the 1870s to the late 1890s. However, did the Guilded Age really come from having no government involvement or regulation? The railroad industry was hugely subsidized by the government and in turn so was oil and steel. Those three industries became huge monopolies and oligopolies that fixed prices, paid criminally low wages, and had pitiful working conditions. In a way, the government became interested in expanding these industries for the benefit of expanding its control over national resources. Also, the government blocked endeavors to naturally limit these monopoly influences and keep them at least in some form of check. When the government stepped in and subsized Standard Oil and the railroads, they squeezed out any capacity for private competition to these rising companies. Sure the finese of people like Rockefeller and Carnegie were brilliant and cruel, but one can't help but see the role that the federal government played in business from 1866 to 1932. Many Republicans at the time were for 'cooperation' between business and government. This in itself clearly suggests that the government had never truly had a laisez-faire attitude and that government has been heavily involved in business since the end of the Civil War, largely pushed through by President Grant.

    Within itself, I cannot help but see that corporatism and dystopianism is the opposite of capitalism and its certainly contrary to its goals. For capitalism to work, there's got to be competition in the private sector. Blurring the lines between private and public (as well as the lack of some regulation) may have been the root cause of the path towards corporate dogma as a posed to real capitalism and this can understandably lead people to believe that this lack of regulation requires more government control in the economy. But I think that this might actually be a misled conclusion.

    So perhaps government really is the problem. Anytime politicians meddle with the work of professionals, it becomes diluted and twisted. Red-tape is the barrier of efficiency and in these times efficient markets are what we desperately need.
    Last edited by Admiral Piett; March 26, 2009 at 07:03 AM.
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  2. #2

    Default Re: Does Capitalism Really Result in Corporatism?

    I think the biggest lie is that democracy as we know it cannot exist without capitalism as we are told it is.

    It's when our politicians have stocks in uranium mining and then they run on a platform of nuclear power where we have this problem of corporatization.

    I mean what is it other than our corporations and our governments become nigh indistinguishable?
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    Default Re: Does Capitalism Really Result in Corporatism?

    Whenever the government takes on the role of promoting an activity there is a huge risk of overplaying the hand. The trite truism of the government that governs best overns least comes to mind.

    Government is needed for the rule of law. Contracts need enforcement and adjudication. The giant leap to promotion is where government has failed. You example of the railroads is a perfect example of crossing the line from adjudication to promotion. Of coourse, if the government had not claimed ownership of the land in the first place...
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  4. #4

    Default Re: Does Capitalism Really Result in Corporatism?

    Hasn't it worsened? Or is business still so entrenched in American politics? Did communist fear spurn that? Did it give big business the excuse it needed to burrow itself deeper?

    Can democracy survive without the capitalism we know?
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  5. #5

    Default Re: Does Capitalism Really Result in Corporatism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Da Skinna View Post
    Hasn't it worsened? Or is business still so entrenched in American politics? Did communist fear spurn that? Did it give big business the excuse it needed to burrow itself deeper?

    Can democracy survive without the capitalism we know?
    It wasn't fear of communism that spurred this, Da Skinna. Back during the late 19th Century most Americans had not even heard of communism. As VK said, key members of government began lobbying through the outright favoritism of certain corporations and squashed out opposition and competition. Not to mention, they began blocking the measures for some of the necessary limitations as well. This is what allowed the monopolies and oligopolies of the Gilded Age to take foot.

    Personally I don't think we've got a real capitalism and that we never had real democracy.

    I'm starting to lean more and more to the right in terms of markets now because I can't help but see that a true capitalist market is the opposite of corporatism. The less the monopolies and multinational grubholders, the better. Governments breaking up these monopolies hasn't done much at all. Look at AT&T. They've all but reformed back together.
    Last edited by Admiral Piett; March 26, 2009 at 04:27 PM.
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  6. #6

    Default Re: Does Capitalism Really Result in Corporatism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Future Filmmaker View Post
    It wasn't fear of communism that spurred this, Da Skinna. Back during the late 19th Century most Americans had not even heard of communism. As VK said, key members of government began lobbying through the outright favoritism of certain corporations and squashed out opposition and competition. Not to mention, they began blocking the measures for some of the necessary limitations as well. This is what allowed the monopolies and oligopolies of the Gilded Age to take foot.

    Personally I don't think we've got a real capitalism and that we never had real democracy.

    I'm starting to lean more and more to the right in terms of markets now because I can't help but see that a true capitalist market is the opposite of corporatism. The less the monopolies and multinational grubholders, the better. Governments breaking up these monopolies hasn't done much at all. Look at AT&T. They've all but reformed back together.
    It's why I asked if it has worsened with the advent of ookie spookie Communism.

    And it can be argued if this isn't capitalism, then Russia wasn't communist.

    I think there's a flaw in Ron Paul's argument. Yes he is right about this not being capitalism, but he's also railing against regulation, saying there's too much, which I thought there wasn't really any...?

    Then I realized he meant we needed to regulate the deregulation... almost a double negative.

    I think this recession is the major hiccup in asserting ourselves into a rightful capitalist system.
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  7. #7
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    Default Re: Does Capitalism Really Result in Corporatism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Future Filmmaker View Post
    Personally I don't think we've got a real capitalism and that we never had real democracy.
    Real capitalism requires a free market with no regualtions in other words say hi to corporatism.
    I'm starting to lean more and more to the right in terms of markets now because I can't help but see that a true capitalist market is the opposite of corporatism. The less the monopolies and multinational grubholders, the better. Governments breaking up these monopolies hasn't done much at all. Look at AT&T. They've all but reformed back together.
    Corporatism is real capitalism.With evey confruntation on the market someone looses and someone wins so one of them will become very dominant.
    Having a huge number of small companies playing in a free market sounds good,sooner or later one will get too fat so capitalism,real or very regualted, will lead to corporatism.
    The state is to weak to do anythnig especialy in the US.The senators get huge sums of money just to pass laws that help the corporations.Maybe states have much money then corporations but it's very hard to steal it and use it for your own needs but what keeps few huge corporations buying the politicians if it's in their best interests.The state must make sure that all thnigs run well and everyone has something to eat and a place to sleep but we left those things in the hands of huge comapies and as we know the companies want only one thing:more money.
    The state might be slower but it more preferable to companies.
    A state that has a smaller income but that uses it to take care of the needs of it's people is better then a state that has a bigger income but the biggest part is in the hands of very rich people that lead multinational and international corporations,you might like what you see when you see per capita but other then that no other positive parts.


    Quote Originally Posted by Da Skinna View Post
    And it can be argued if this isn't capitalism, then Russia wasn't communist.
    It wasn't communist.USSR - Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.Communism mean all people get almost the same salary with no regard to their work and capitalism is free market without regulations or laws in other words jungle law.Yes USA had an affinity to capitalism and USSR to communism or beter said totalitarism masked as communism.
    Last edited by ShockBlast; March 28, 2009 at 06:15 AM.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Does Capitalism Really Result in Corporatism?

    Quote Originally Posted by ShockBlast View Post
    Real capitalism requires a free market with no regualtions in other words say hi to corporatism.

    Corporatism is real capitalism.With evey confruntation on the market someone looses and someone wins so one of them will become very dominant.
    Having a huge number of small companies playing in a free market sounds good,sooner or later one will get too fat so capitalism,real or very regualted, will lead to corporatism.
    The state is to weak to do anythnig especialy in the US.The senators get huge sums of money just to pass laws that help the corporations.Maybe states have much money then corporations but it's very hard to steal it and use it for your own needs but what keeps few huge corporations buying the politicians if it's in their best interests.The state must make sure that all thnigs run well and everyone has something to eat and a place to sleep but we left those things in the hands of huge comapies and as we know the companies want only one thing:more money.
    The state might be slower but it more preferable to companies.
    A state that has a smaller income but that uses it to take care of the needs of it's people is better then a state that has a bigger income but the biggest part is in the hands of very rich people that lead multinational and international corporations,you might like what you see when you see per capita but other then that no other positive parts.



    It wasn't communist.USSR - Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.Communism mean all people get almost the same salary with no regard to their work and capitalism is free market without regulations or laws in other words jungle law.Yes USA had an affinity to capitalism and USSR to communism or beter said totalitarism masked as communism.
    Corporatism and capitalism are not the same thing in that socialism and communism are not the same thing. And if you paid attention to what I was saying, the ultimate corporations of the past were largely government subsidized businesses. I'm curious to know what might have happened had they not been so heavily subsidized. Ironically, the government's support is partially what blocked the necessary regulations from coming about. I'm certainly not against regulation, but forcing the economy to live off of handouts is a monopoly within itself, only its the government. And government's got no competition, they make the laws.

    And no other positive parts? Considering America being the strongest economic power in the world, I'd say that there are a lot of benefits. There is definitely room for reform, but moving further and further to the left is going to hurt us much more badly than we've already hurt ourselves.
    Last edited by Admiral Piett; March 28, 2009 at 07:29 AM.
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  9. #9

    Default Re: Does Capitalism Really Result in Corporatism?

    Basically, yes. Capitalism allows free trade that many gorge on but after a while, the richest will try to monopolize their own sources of income and exclude newcomers as much as possible. This causes economic oligarchism and is a cause for Corporatism, if it isn't it already. This has happened since Capitalism has been invented.
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  10. #10

    Default Re: Does Capitalism Really Result in Corporatism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Croccer View Post
    Basically, yes. Capitalism allows free trade that many gorge on but after a while, the richest will try to monopolize their own sources of income and exclude newcomers as much as possible. This causes economic oligarchism and is a cause for Corporatism, if it isn't it already. This has happened since Capitalism has been invented.
    However the power of those corporations were never allowed to become so single-handedly dominating without the endorsement of the government is what I'm saying. Ironically, the government supporting these businesses was one of the major problems with 19th Century economic policy. The oil and railroad interests had such influence and control over Congress for a time that it disallowed any natural limitations. The Gilded Age may not have come about without government pressing its interests in the booming industrial corporations for the purpose of dominating markets and controlling/maximizing the flow of the resources.

    Ron Paul is actually taking the argument that the FED and fiscal policy of the 1990s actually has more blame than the bankers. The bankers were just sitting there gleefully willing to carry out the loans being cheered on by the FED. When the rules promote the act and promote the business, it's not the same as a problem of lack of regulation. It's actively BLOCKING regulation and any clamors for limitation or responsibility. Paul simply isn't convinced that these regulations are going to help us the market. I'm not sure I agree with him on that one, but I do think he's got it spot on on where the real roots of the problem lay and what kind of action we need to take.
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  11. #11
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    Default Re: Does Capitalism Really Result in Corporatism?

    The monopoly that exists for any length of time without government endorsement is a natural one and even then it still usually involves government (unless someone can think of examples) so in essence yes FF is entirely correct in his post.

    Rothbard calls what FF talks about state capatilism, where private companies, special interests and the state work together in collusion at the expense of the consumer.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Does Capitalism Really Result in Corporatism?

    http://articles.latimes.com/2008/aug...ss/fi-census27

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty..._United_States

    the wiki needs updating apparently, but capitalism leads to an underclass of the destitute, you have to decide if human suffering on the scale of 1/8th of your population being to poor to afford to get sick is a price worth paying. I do not think it is.

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    Default Re: Does Capitalism Really Result in Corporatism?

    Quote Originally Posted by justicar5 View Post
    http://articles.latimes.com/2008/aug...ss/fi-census27

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty..._United_States

    the wiki needs updating apparently, but capitalism leads to an underclass of the destitute, you have to decide if human suffering on the scale of 1/8th of your population being to poor to afford to get sick is a price worth paying. I do not think it is.
    I can assure you that at the dawn of the U.S. republic way more people where considered "poor". Capitalism has gone along way to bring most people out of poverty, and given even to the poor comforts that 18th century aristocracy couldn't even dream of. When looked at this way it has a pretty awesome record.



  14. #14

    Default Re: Does Capitalism Really Result in Corporatism?

    Quote Originally Posted by BNS View Post
    I can assure you that at the dawn of the U.S. republic way more people where considered "poor". Capitalism has gone along way to bring most people out of poverty, and given even to the poor comforts that 18th century aristocracy couldn't even dream of. When looked at this way it has a pretty awesome record.

    well the USSR coul and did make the same claim, thats the march of technology, yes standards of living are improving how much of that is due to capitalism, how much due to technological advancement. Thats the question. (btw I do not approve of communsim before anyone says it)

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    Default Re: Does Capitalism Really Result in Corporatism?

    Quote Originally Posted by justicar5 View Post
    well the USSR coul and did make the same claim, thats the march of technology, yes standards of living are improving how much of that is due to capitalism, how much due to technological advancement. Thats the question. (btw I do not approve of communsim before anyone says it)
    Does does soviet technology even compare, outside of the military, to the abundance and quality of the U.S. and Western European products of the time? Capitalistic entrepreneurship has an undisputable link to the creation and production of most of the technologies we use today.
    Last edited by BNS; March 28, 2009 at 10:52 AM.



  16. #16

    Default Re: Does Capitalism Really Result in Corporatism?

    We have to remember too that Marx came up with his stuff as a result of the adjusting capitalist system of the Industrial Revolution.

    Liberalism and socialism is what grants us the majority of our workplace rights.
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    Default Re: Does Capitalism Really Result in Corporatism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Da Skinna View Post
    We have to remember too that Marx came up with his stuff as a result of the adjusting capitalist system of the Industrial Revolution.

    Liberalism and socialism is what grants us the majority of our workplace rights.

    true, my answer to this problem is social democracy, but since the arguement has been going since the enlightenment, well it's all just opinions.

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    Default Re: Does Capitalism Really Result in Corporatism?

    http://articles.latimes.com/2008/aug...ss/fi-census27

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty..._United_States

    the wiki needs updating apparently, but capitalism leads to an underclass of the destitute, you have to decide if human suffering on the scale of 1/8th of your population being to poor to afford to get sick is a price worth paying. I do not think it is.
    Ohh snap, breaking out the wiki.

    You think there are more destitute today than a hundred years ago? Please, let me explain something to you about the differences between being rich and poor over the past many decades and centuries. It used to be being rich was more than a bank account. It was having, albeit relatively, a full stomach. It was being able to go on vacations and enjoy luxuries that were unimaginable to the lower classes. Things like taking a bath, riding in carriages, being able to read and getting an education, having leisure time to once in a while sit on your ass if you cared (although that in many cases was a rarity even for the rich).

    Today what can a wealthy person actually do that a poor person can't, or the desititute middle class? You can go to the pro bowl in hawaii for five days and stay on waikiki beach for 2k plus food expenses. You can go to europe from the US and enjoy several days vacation for a little over a grand (with the right travel agency). Hell the fact you even have access to a travel agency and considering who in the past only had access is evidence against this assinine notion that capitalism creates destitutes. Rich people may have larger bank accounts but many of the goods they enjoy, so do the destitute.
    Sure I've been called a xenophobe, but the truth is Im not. I honestly feel that America is the best country and all other countries aren't as good. That used to be called patriotism.

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    Default Re: Does Capitalism Really Result in Corporatism?

    Quote Originally Posted by JP226 View Post
    Ohh snap, breaking out the wiki.

    You think there are more destitute today than a hundred years ago? Please, let me explain something to you about the differences between being rich and poor over the past many decades and centuries. It used to be being rich was more than a bank account. It was having, albeit relatively, a full stomach. It was being able to go on vacations and enjoy luxuries that were unimaginable to the lower classes. Things like taking a bath, riding in carriages, being able to read and getting an education, having leisure time to once in a while sit on your ass if you cared (although that in many cases was a rarity even for the rich).

    Today what can a wealthy person actually do that a poor person can't, or the desititute middle class? You can go to the pro bowl in hawaii for five days and stay on waikiki beach for 2k plus food expenses. You can go to europe from the US and enjoy several days vacation for a little over a grand (with the right travel agency). Hell the fact you even have access to a travel agency and considering who in the past only had access is evidence against this assinine notion that capitalism creates destitutes. Rich people may have larger bank accounts but many of the goods they enjoy, so do the destitute.
    comparing the rich to the middle class isn't much of an argument on poverty...esp since most people only make around 23k a year im going to assume that spending 2k to go watch a game is a bit to luxurious and is highly unnecessary. especially when that amount of money can do alot of good when put into social programs such as school fund setc
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    Default Re: Does Capitalism Really Result in Corporatism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alkarin View Post
    comparing the rich to the middle class isn't much of an argument on poverty...esp since most people only make around 23k a year im going to assume that spending 2k to go watch a game is a bit to luxurious and is highly unnecessary. especially when that amount of money can do alot of good when put into social programs such as school fund setc
    The point is that the modern economy allows all people with cash to allocate to maximize utility. Those too poor to afford the minimum considered appropriate in the economy will receive assistance. In the scheme of things 2k is not much if there is sufficient utility to be gained from the purchase. The reason you do not see more people taking that option says more about the decision making of the poorer people and less about the wealthy.
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