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Thread: Moral Codes before the 10 commandments?

  1. #101
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Moral Codes before the 10 commandments?

    conon394,

    I am surely not being obtuse when I answer that God may allow slavery but He certainly does not approve of it. He allowed man to fall into sin and be bound by it but He certainly does not approve of it otherwise why would our Creator come into the world to save men from their sin?

  2. #102
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    Default Re: Moral Codes before the 10 commandments?

    I answer that God may allow slavery but He certainly does not approve of it.
    He makes an explicit part of law multiple times that is approval. And in any case it still mean if the modern world followed the 10 commandments and related the world in your opinion would be better if it had god approved slavery.

    He allowed man to fall into sin and be bound by it but He certainly does not approve of it otherwise why would our Creator come into the world to save men from their sin?
    I think you my answer to that. But in general just highlights the capricious and inept or simply profoundly cruel nature of of god via the new testament.
    Last edited by conon394; May 17, 2023 at 09:50 AM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  3. #103
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Moral Codes before the 10 commandments?

    conon394,

    What does the Torah say about strangers?
    (Exodus 23:9) When a stranger resides with you in your land, you shall not wrong him. The stranger who resides with you shall be to you as one of your citizens; you shall love him as yourself, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt.

    For YHWH your God, he is God of gods …, who is impartial in judgment, who does not accept a bribe, the one who secures justice for the fatherless and the widow, and who loves the stranger, giving him/her food and clothing. So you are to love the stranger, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt. Deut 16:19.

    Where does it say make slaves of anyone who outside of the Tribes must be a stranger?

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    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Moral Codes before the 10 commandments?

    Where does it say make slaves of anyone who outside of the Tribes must be a stranger?
    Not quite sure what you mean to be asking here


    In any case Leviticus 25:44ff

    ‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life,

    For YHWH your God, he is God of gods …, who is impartial in judgment, who does not accept a bribe, the one who secures justice for the fatherless and the widow, and who loves the stranger, giving him/her food and clothing. So you are to love the stranger, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt. Deut 16:19.
    Umm not in any bible I have is that Deut 16:19, and you ellipse in that quote I assume its not your typing?

    19 Do not pervert justice or show partiality. Do not accept a bribe, for a bribe blinds the eyes of the wise and twists the words of the innocent.

    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...16&version=NIV
    Last edited by conon394; May 18, 2023 at 08:50 AM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

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    Default Re: Moral Codes before the 10 commandments?

    conon394,

    WVW: Does the Bible Support Slavery - Leviticus 25:44-46

    Updated: Apr 19



    Leviticus 25:44-46

    44 As for your male and female slaves whom you may have: you may buy male and female slaves from among the nations that are around you.45 You may also buy from among the strangers who sojourn with you and their clans that are with you, who have been born in your land, and they may be your property. 46 You may bequeath them to your sons after you to inherit as a possession forever. You may make slaves of them, but over your brothers the people of Israel you shall not rule, one over another ruthlessly.

    Admittedly, this has not been one of the topics I’ve spent a lot of time on, however I’ve been seeing the trend of claims that the Bible promotes slavery. So, for this Weird Verse Wednesday we’re going to dive headfirst into one of the toughest topics facing the modern Christian.

    At first glance, when someone presents you with Leviticus 25:44-46, or perhaps Exodus 21:20-21, your belief in a loving and just God may be significantly stirred.

    Exodus 21:20-21

    20 “When a man strikes his slave, male or female, with a rod and the slave dies under his hand, he shall be avenged. 21 But if the slave survives a day or two, he is not to be avenged, for the slave is his money.

    Is the Bible saying you can buy slaves and beat them half to death? As long as they don’t actually die? This is a big problem for Christians who promote love, and believe the Bible teaches us to be at peace with everyone. Not only Christians, but really just 2019 western thinkers in general. Slavery is widely condemned, and the fact that we have an “inerrant”, “infallible” (quotes added by imagined atheist in my head) holy bible that seems to promote slavery appears to be in direct contradiction with our modern moral standards.

    However, I’d like to propose that maybe if the South would have actually believed the Bible’s teaching about slavery, they would have never believed in the harsh treatment and enslaving of their human brother or sister that was made in the image of God. (I’m not attempting to throw shots at the South, as I know many in the North had slaves too. But the typical image of slavery that comes to mind is that of the Antebellum South.)

    There are several things to keep in mind when discussing the Bible’s treatment of the topic of slavery



    1. The Mosaic Law was temporal

    Of course, we understand that much of the Mosaic Law does not directly apply to us today. God gave the Mosaic Law to the Israelites in order to speak directly to their situation somewhere in the 1400’s BC. This was a completely different world than the one we live in today. Certainly, any laws regarding issues that no longer exist, don’t apply to us today. Also, Jesus fulfilled the ceremonial aspects of the law, which is why we no longer sacrifice and perform rituals, etc. However, we can glean ethical principles from the law, as it is a reflection of man’s heart. It reveals to us what our sinful nature desires.

    I say all that to say, that God’s law given to Moses for the Israelites in the 1400’s BC was a means to deal with the present situation and steer them towards the correct method of living. It is not necessarily a reflection of God’s character or an all-encompassing look at His desire for mankind.

    So, am I saying that God’s law isn’t transcendent and timeless? The audacity!!

    Well don’t take my word for it. Take God’s. Here’s Jesus –

    Matthew 19:3-8

    3 Some Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?”

    4 “Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’ 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’? 6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.”

    7 “Why then,” they asked, “did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?”

    8 Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. 9 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”

    The Mosaic Law was given to a specific audience, in order to steer their hard hearts down the right path. It does not, however, claim to be an overarching, applicable set of laws that reveal God’s entire desire for mankind for all time. With this understanding, we now see that God was directing a situation in which Israel was already living. He clearly does not support or even condone slavery as we understand it, but we will get into that further along in this post.



    2. The Mosaic Law presses Israel towards freedom for slaves

    There are a ton of scriptures that prove to us that God desires freedom for people that Israel has enslaved. Here are a few –

    Deuteronomy 15:12-17

    12 “If your brother, a Hebrew man or a Hebrew woman, is sold to you, he shall serve you six years, and in the seventh year you shall let him go free from you. 13 And when you let him go free from you, you shall not let him go empty-handed. 14 You shall furnish him liberally out of your flock, out of your threshing floor, and out of your winepress. As the Lord your God has blessed you, you shall give to him. 15 You shall remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the Lord your God redeemed you; therefore I command you this today. 16 But if he says to you, ‘I will not go out from you,’ because he loves you and your household, since he is well-off with you, 17 then you shall take an awl, and put it through his ear into the door, and he shall be your slave forever. And to your female slave you shall do the same.

    Wow, so many good things in this text that I’d like to break down. First of all, not only is God commanding the Israelites to free their servants after six years of service, He is also commanding that they give their former servants from their flock and threshing floor and winepress liberally. This was an agricultural economy, so these things equal money $$.

    Secondly, the option for the servant to stay is given for those slaves who “love you and your household”. This should confuse you if you’re currently projecting your view of slavery onto the historical context of the Bible. How could a slave possibly love the person who has enslaved them? Clearly, this can’t be the same type of slavery we’re familiar with. This is true, and we’ll dive deeper into that in the next section.

    Thirdly, this portion shows that God is sentimental towards the suffering of the slave, as His reason for commanding the blessing and freeing of slaves is because of His empathy for Israel’s past slavery in Egypt. The narrative in Exodus very clearly shows that God is willing to move hell and high water in order to free those who are enslaved. He withheld nothing in order to free the Israelites from Egyptian bondage.

    The next portion of Scripture is a threat that God issued to Judah for not freeing their slaves according to the Mosaic Law.

    Jeremiah 34:8-24

    8 The word that came to Jeremiah from the Lord, after King Zedekiah had made a covenant with all the people in Jerusalem to make a proclamation of liberty to them, 9 that everyone should set free his Hebrew slaves, male and female, so that no one should enslave a Jew, his brother. 10 And they obeyed, all the officials and all the people who had entered into the covenant that everyone would set free his slave, male or female, so that they would not be enslaved again. They obeyed and set them free. 11 But afterward they turned around and took back the male and female slaves they had set free, and brought them into subjection as slaves. 12 The word of the Lord came to Jeremiah from the Lord: 13 “Thus says the Lord, the God of Israel: I myself made a covenant with your fathers when I brought them out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery, saying, 14 ‘At the end of seven years each of you must set free the fellow Hebrew who has been sold to you and has served you six years; you must set him free from your service.’ But your fathers did not listen to me or incline their ears to me. 15 You recently repented and did what was right in my eyes by proclaiming liberty, each to his neighbor, and you made a covenant before me in the house that is called by my name, 16 but then you turned around and profaned my name when each of you took back his male and female slaves, whom you had set free according to their desire, and you brought them into subjection to be your slaves.

    17 “Therefore, thus says the Lord: You have not obeyed me by proclaiming liberty, every one to his brother and to his neighbor; behold, I proclaim to you liberty to the sword, to pestilence, and to famine, declares the Lord. I will make you a horror to all the kingdoms of the earth. 18 And the men who transgressed my covenant and did not keep the terms of the covenant that they made before me, I will make them like the calf that they cut in two and passed between its parts— 19 the officials of Judah, the officials of Jerusalem, the eunuchs, the priests, and all the people of the land who passed between the parts of the calf.20 And I will give them into the hand of their enemies and into the hand of those who seek their lives. Their dead bodies shall be food for the birds of the air and the beasts of the earth. 21 And Zedekiah king of Judah and his officials I will give into the hand of their enemies and into the hand of those who seek their lives, into the hand of the army of the king of Babylon which has withdrawn from you. 22 Behold, I will command, declares the Lord, and will bring them back to this city. And they will fight against it and take it and burn it with fire. I will make the cities of Judah a desolation without inhabitant.”

    Because Judah did not allow their slaves to go free, as commanded by God in the Mosaic Law, He issued death threats to them, and said things like “their dead bodies shall be food for the birds of the air and the beasts of the earth.” God is serious about freedom for slaves that are owned by the Israelites.

    Besides the freeing of servants after six years of service, Israel is also required to free their servants on the year of Jubilee, which was every 50 years.

    Leviticus 25:39-40

    39 “If your brother becomes poor beside you and sells himself to you, you shall not make him serve as a slave: 40 he shall be with you as a hired worker and as a sojourner. He shall serve with you until the year of the jubilee.

    On top of that, if a slave wanted to be free before any of these timeframes took place, they were allowed to buy their freedom.

    Leviticus 25:48-52

    48 then after he is sold he may be redeemed. One of his brothers may redeem him, 49 or his uncle or his cousin may redeem him, or a close relative from his clan may redeem him. Or if he grows rich he may redeem himself. 50 He shall calculate with his buyer from the year when he sold himself to him until the year of jubilee, and the price of his sale shall vary with the number of years. The time he was with his owner shall be rated as the time of a hired worker. 51 If there are still many years left, he shall pay proportionately for his redemption some of his sale price. 52 If there remain but a few years until the year of jubilee, he shall calculate and pay for his redemption in proportion to his years of service.


    How about a couple of my all time favorites -

    Exodus 21:16

    16 “Whoever steals a man and sells him, and anyone found in possession of him, shall be put to death.

    Deuteronomy 24:7

    7 “If a man is found stealing one of his brothers of the people of Israel, and if he treats him as a slave or sells him, then that thief shall die. So you shall purge the evil from your midst.

    So, in a world where people already own slaves, we see all over the Mosaic Law that God commanded freedom for slaves and gave provisions for slaves to free themselves. Also, any kidnapping and selling or buying of a person was rewarded with death and the person participating in slave trade is labeled as evil.



    3. Slaves sold themselves and were more like hired workers

    This is another important point. God did not allow slave trade the way we perceive it. There was to be no kidnapping or stealing of people followed by selling. Rather, people were allowed to sell themselves into slavery voluntarily. This was typically in order to pay off debts, or simply because a family was poor and selling yourself into slavery gave you provisions that you would not otherwise have. We’ll dive further into that in the next section.

    Leviticus 25:39-41

    39 “If your brother becomes poor beside you and sells himself to you, you shall not make him serve as a slave: 40 he shall be with you as a hired worker and as a sojourner. He shall serve with you until the year of the jubilee. 41 Then he shall go out from you, he and his children with him, and go back to his own clan and return to the possession of his fathers.

    Leviticus 25:47-48

    47 “If a stranger or sojourner with you becomes rich, and your brother beside him becomes poor and sells himself to the stranger or sojourner with you or to a member of the stranger's clan, 48 then after he is sold he may be redeemed. One of his brothers may redeem him,

    Also, God reminds His people that they are to treat the slaves as hired workers

    Leviticus 25:53

    53 He shall treat him as a worker hired year by year. He shall not rule ruthlessly over him in your sight.



    4. The Mosaic Law required good treatment of slaves by Israel

    The Mosaic laws pertaining to slavery are starkly contrasted by other laws of this day. This is clear when we observe the day to day treatment laid out in ancient texts. Hammurabi’s code, law number 282 says, "If a slave says to his master: "You are not my master," if they convict him his master shall cut off his ear." It seems that those who claim that the Bible supports slavery should be able to find verses as damning as this one. However, that is not the case. All of the laws concerning treatment of slaves are restrictive in nature in regard to the “master” in the Mosaic Law. There is a massive amount of verses that command Israel to treat their slaves with respect.

    Exodus 21:26-27

    26 “When a man strikes the eye of his slave, male or female, and destroys it, he shall let the slave go free because of his eye. 27 If he knocks out the tooth of his slave, male or female, he shall let the slave go free because of his tooth.

    Exodus 21:20

    20 “When a man strikes his slave, male or female, with a rod and the slave dies under his hand, he shall be avenged.

    These are two verses that prohibit violent treatment of slaves. This was an extremely prohibitive deterrent, meant to scare anyone away from beating their slaves. Exodus 21:20 for instance – the penalty here, or “avengement”, is death. If you beat your slave and they die because of it, you will lose your life over this. Also, verses 26 & 27 in Leviticus 21 make it clear that even injuring your slave will allow that slave to go free. This created too much risk for the slave owner to mistreat their slaves, as they would either lose their slave or their life entirely.

    There are several other examples of God commanding respect for slaves. For example, if a slave ran away from their owner and found refuge with an Israelite, that Israelite was not allowed to give up the slave. In fact, the law commands them to let that slave live wherever he likes within the town!

    Deuteronomy 23:15-16

    15 You shall not give up to his master a slave who has escaped from his master to you. 16 He shall dwell with you, in your midst, in the place that he shall choose within one of your towns, wherever it suits him. You shall not wrong him.

    Here are a few others that speak to respecting slaves

    Leviticus 25:53

    53 He shall treat him as a worker hired year by year. He shall not rule ruthlessly over him in your sight.

    Exodus 21:12

    12 “Whoever strikes a man so that he dies shall be put to death.

    This next one refers to women that were bought as wives

    Exodus 21:7-8

    7 “When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she shall not go out as the male slaves do. 8 If she does not please her master, who has designated her for himself, then he shall let her be redeemed. He shall have no right to sell her to a foreign people, since he has broken faith with her.9 If he designates her for his son, he shall deal with her as with a daughter. 10 If he takes another wife to himself, he shall not diminish her food, her clothing, or her marital rights. 11 And if he does not do these three things for her, she shall go out for nothing, without payment of money.

    Women did not sell themselves for labor purposes. They sold themselves as wives. Essentially, verse 7 is telling us that on the seventh year, women slaves were not to be freed in the same way that male slaves were. The whole reason for this, was to protect the women. Marriage was a covenant and verse 8 alludes to the fact that they were in covenant together (married). It says that HE has broken faith with HER if she does not please him. Therefore, putting the blame on the man who is not “pleased”.

    If God did not put this rule in place, the man who bought her as a wife could just “free” her after six years and be done with her. This law protects her in that he must keep her as a wife, or else he must redeem her. Redeeming includes the giving of clothes, food, means, etc. On top of that, if he buys her in order to marry her, and is generally not happy with the marriage, God requires that the man still cares for her and treats her lovingly. If he does not take care of her and treat her lovingly, she has the right to just leave! Doesn’t sound a whole lot like slavery as we know it. In fact, if a man pays for his son’s wife, the Bible requires that she be treated like his daughter.

    So, we’ve really only spent time analyzing the Mosaic Law’s codes that pertain to slavery, and what have we learned from these? We’ve learned that God presses Israel through His laws to free slaves. That is observed in all the texts where God commands slaves to be free in all kinds of different scenarios. We also see God threatening death to those who do not free their slaves. On top of that, we see for the slaves that remain, God requires that they be treated with respect and dealt with “as daughters”, wives, or kin in general. They are not allowed to injure or kill the slaves. They are required to provide food and homes and possessions to the slaves. God’s heart towards slavery was soft and commanded kindness to people who sold themselves into slavery. For the last section I want to tackle the following point –



    5. God had a plan to abolish slavery.

    As I stated in the first section, the Mosaic Law was temporal and was a reflection of the hardness of Israel’s heart at the time. So, let’s see if we can understand God’s heart towards slavery using the rest of the Bible.

    Colossians 4:1

    Masters, treat your bondservants justly and fairly, knowing that you also have a Master in heaven.

    In this passage, God, through Paul, equates us to “bondservants” (slaves) and God as our “Master”. So following this analogy, how does God, our “Master”, deal with his servants? Well that is an easy one, He loves us unconditionally and died for us so that we may spend eternity with Him. He is slow to anger and quick to forgive. He is gracious and merciful and just. He treats us as His children and has a beautiful plan for our lives. He knows us and calls us friends. I can rant forever about how good God is to us, but you get the idea.

    Here’s a few self-explanatory verses to show us more of God’s heart on this topic -

    Exodus 23:9

    “You shall not oppress a sojourner. You know the heart of a sojourner, for you were sojourners in the land of Egypt.

    James 2:8-9

    8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well. 9 But if you show partiality [racism/classism], you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors.

    James 5:4

    4 Behold, the wages of the laborers who mowed your fields, which you kept back by fraud, are crying out against you, and the cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of hosts

    1 Timothy 1:9-10

    9 understanding this, that the law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who strike their fathers and mothers, for murderers,10 the sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine,

    Leviticus 19:33-34

    33 “When a stranger sojourns with you in your land, you shall not do him wrong. 34 You shall treat the stranger who sojourns with you as the native among you, and you shall love him as yourself, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God.

    Ephesians 2:13-14

    13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility

    1 Corinthians 12:13

    13 For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit.

    Ephesians 4:32

    32 Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you.

    Galatians 3:28

    28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

    Genesis 1:26-27

    26 Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”

    27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

    I think you get the picture! We are all one in God’s eyes and He has a tender heart towards the oppressed and the sojourner. There’s one last portion of Scripture I want to cover, and then I promise we’ll wrap this puppy up. There is one book of the Bible completely devoted to slavery that we tend to miss. Let’s check out Philemon.

    Philemon 1:8-21

    8 Accordingly, though I am bold enough in Christ to command you to do what is required, 9 yet for love's sake I prefer to appeal to you—I, Paul, an old man and now a prisoner also for Christ Jesus— 10 I appeal to you for my child, Onesimus, whose father I became in my imprisonment.11 (Formerly he was useless to you, but now he is indeed useful to you and to me.) 12 I am sending him back to you, sending my very heart. 13 I would have been glad to keep him with me, in order that he might serve me on your behalf during my imprisonment for the gospel, 14 but I preferred to do nothing without your consent in order that your goodness might not be by compulsion but of your own accord. 15 For this perhaps is why he was parted from you for a while, that you might have him back forever, 16 no longer as a bondservant but more than a bondservant, as a beloved brother—especially to me, but how much more to you, both in the flesh and in the Lord.

    17 So if you consider me your partner, receive him as you would receive me. 18 If he has wronged you at all, or owes you anything, charge that to my account. 19 I, Paul, write this with my own hand: I will repay it—to say nothing of your owing me even your own self. 20 Yes, brother, I want some benefit from you in the Lord. Refresh my heart in Christ.

    21 Confident of your obedience, I write to you, knowing that you will do even more than I say.

    In this text, Paul is appealing Philemon to receive back a slave named Onesimus who had run away. Paul is appealing for Philemon not to take him back as a slave, but as a brother. There are a few things to break down in this text.

    A. In verses 8-9 Paul has the authority to command Philemon to treat Onesimus as a brother instead of a slave. This is God’s ultimate desire and requirement. That the slave be free and treated as a brother. Paul is implying that he has authority to command this on God’s behalf.

    B. Paul’s view of Onesimus as a son is deeply moving. Those who claim that the Bible speaks to slaves as if they’re property clearly have a superficial understanding of the text. All throughout Scripture we see that God loves the slave and considers them as equals to everyone else. And even here, we see Paul tenderly pleading on Onesimus’s behalf as if he is his own son.

    C. Slaves are brothers, both in flesh and in the Lord. Verse 16, I believe is the crux of the book and God’s attitude towards slavery. God, and consequently Paul, is reaching straight for Philemon’s heart in order to cause a shift in his mindset towards slavery. Instead of politically upending a major part of the ancient world, which would cause chaos, revolt, and a bend towards disobedience, God worked patiently in the heart of man to change our minds about slavery. He desires us to view the slave as our beloved brother, which in turn will cause us to eradicate slavery of our own free will and loving hearts.

    D. Paul is a type of Christ in verses 17-19. A type means that Paul points us to what Christ did for us on the cross, through his actions or speech. Paul is taking the slave’s burden and putting it on himself, and he is telling Philemon to receive Onesimus as he would receive Paul. What a beautiful picture of what Christ did for us. Christ died for us and carried our burden on His shoulders. Now God the Father receives us just as if we are Jesus. We are God’s sons and daughters, and that includes the slave.



    6. God’s plan to abolish slavery worked.

    As I stated in the previous section, instead of politically upending a major part of the ancient world, which would cause chaos, revolt, and a bend towards disobedience, God worked patiently in the heart of man to change our minds about slavery. If we systematically look at all the Scriptures regarding slavery, which we did, we see this to be true. Therefore, you would presently expect mankind to have a different view of slavery than it once held.

    Well, the truth is, although the Bible was grossly misused to support slavery in the south in America’s early years, it was also the basis of which abolitionists launched their campaign against slavery. William Wilberforce was one of the leading abolitionists of the day and said this, “God Almighty has set before me two great objects, the suppression of the Slave Trade and Reformation of Morals.” Charles Spurgeon had some of his sermons burned in America due to his hatred of slavery, calling it "the foulest blot" and which "may have to be washed out in blood.” In other words, abolishing slavery is worthy of a war. Methodist founder John Wesley called slavery "the sum of all villainies”.

    The first wave of slave abolition in America was among America’s Christian population. They freed their slaves in droves and turned things around by creating black schools, churches, etc. In 1801, in order to become a member of the Methodist church, you had to denounce slavery! Many Baptist and Methodist missionaries were sent to the south in order to evangelize the farmers and sway them towards freeing their slaves, in the same way Paul did with Philemon.

    Conclusion

    To summarize there are six major arguments I’ve made concerning God’s attitude on slavery

    1. The Mosaic Law was temporal

    2. The Mosaic Law presses Israel towards freedom for slaves

    3. Slaves sold themselves and were more like hired workers

    4. The Mosaic Law required good treatment of slaves by Israel

    5. God had a plan to abolish slavery

    6. God’s plan to abolish slavery worked

    The Bible does not support or even condone slavery. God has been patiently working in man’s hard heart in order to overthrow one of the largest sinful institutions that mankind has ever instated. To outright prohibit slavery would not have produced the results that we see today. On the contrary, I believe that the way in which God went about abolishing slavery is by far the best means which could have been used. Slavery is abhorred. We widely condemn it and view each other, now, as brothers and sisters. Glory be to God for working in the background when we do not understand His mysteries!

    - Ryan
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    MaximiIian's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Moral Codes before the 10 commandments?

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    conon394,
    I am surely not being obtuse when I answer that God may allow slavery but He certainly does not approve of it.
    If you are all-powerful and you allow abuse, when you can instantaneously, miraculously remove that abuse, then you're approving of it. Passive approval is still approval. Doing nothing is allowing the abuse to happen, if you have the power to stop it.

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    Default Re: Moral Codes before the 10 commandments?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaximiIian View Post
    If you are all-powerful and you allow abuse, when you can instantaneously, miraculously remove that abuse, then you're approving of it. Passive approval is still approval. Doing nothing is allowing the abuse to happen, if you have the power to stop it.
    Maximillian,

    Then you have to ask the question of why did God allow Adam and Eve to sin?

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    Default Re: Moral Codes before the 10 commandments?

    If you can cut and past text you can cut and paste the source web link. Again if you cite something please provide the source.

    https://www.bibledingers.com/post/wv...ticus-25-44-46

    And you know some sense of your own thoughts would be interesting rather than just borrowing those of others. In this case Ryan - can't find much a bio but I not seeing much in way of classical or ancient history in his not bio online.

    -----------------

    Overall I see sophism, and cherry picking and desperately making Jesus all touchy feely.

    General thoughts the author is at great pains to do some hand waving and confuse slavery of foreigners with debt bondage in ancient Israelites by their own people. This creates a rather disingenuous narrative.

    First let's confirm at this point we are this time generally talking about both the canonical Ten Commandments and the larger law code extent across Exodus, Leviticus and Deuteronomy. You basics see these all as the word of god or inspired word of god.

    It also clear the overall code is often addressing a few different things and jumps about a bit. That is we are looking at interwoven laws for slaves of foreign origin (outsiders) laws about debt bondage within the in group (the Israelites) and laws as they apply to foreign residents and legal travelers within the polity of the Israelites.

    This is not unique. Thus in Athens we can look at Athenian Citizens, Metics (permeant non citizen resident) , Xenoi (short term foreign residents likely just merchants and such[1]), and of course the Doulous (the slave). Note here Solon looks better than the Bible there is no debt bondage allowed for Athenian citizens. But essentially we have the same system from the bible and more or less similar rules I will refer back to this.

    At this point an more full passage Leviticus is useful to have for reference

    44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves forlife, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.
    47 “‘If a foreigner residing among you becomes rich and any of your fellow Israelites become poor and sell themselves to the foreigner or to amember of the foreigner’s clan, 48 they retain the right of redemption after they have sold themselves. One of their relatives may redeem them: 49 An uncle or a cousin or any blood relative in their clan may redeem them. Or if they prosper, they may redeem themselves. 50 They and their buyer are to count the time from the year they sold themselves up to the Year of Jubilee. The price for their release is to be based on the rate paid to a hired worker for that number of years. 51 If many years remain, they must pay for their redemption a larger share of the price paid for them. 52 Ifonly a few years remain until the Year of Jubilee, they are tocompute that and pay for their redemption accordingly. 53 They are to be treated as workers hired from year to year; you must see to it that those to whom they owe service do not rule over them ruthlessly.
    54 “‘Even if someone is not redeemed in any of these ways, they and their children are to be released in the Year of Jubilee, 55 for the Israelites belong to me as servants. They are my servants, whom I brought out of Egypt. I am the Lord your God.


    SO I will here a start to a reply to your text dump without comment 'Ryan's' Text, I'll add more later as time allows.
    1:

    This requires appending the NT onto the new testament. There is no particular internal logic in the Old Testament to suggest the laws are given on some temporary basis.

    5/6:

    A supposed plan that does not exist and would be essentially cruel in the extreme.

    Wow the sophistry hits high gear here in this one looks like just random quotes to make Jesus look nice forget all that OT stuff and you know that genocide at Jericho etc. And the fact no plan to end slavery is ever actually announced. Sorry I did do these in the same order as you source

    "Exodus 23:9" This is immaterial. In context it is clearly a reference to legal travelers being equivalent to the Greek Xenoi. Thus essentially don't attack legal strangers (assuming they obey the law and behave). Says nothing really about slavery as a concept.

    "James 2:8-9" Pointless since the love thy neighbor bit does not translate into no slavery.

    "James 5:4" This is real sophism. The passage is talking about hired labor (ergaton) and their pay (misthos) doing a job that was typical for free hired labor - harvest time work. No slaves here. Just padding and essentially prevarication.

    "Leviticus 19:33-34"

    Nothing about slavery here just allow legal strangers the right to enter and exit kinda hard to have trade without that kind of admonition.

    "Ephesians 2:13-14"

    Filler as no relation to the matter at hand

    "1 Corinthians 12:13"

    Says nothing about any plan to end slavery. In fact since Paul was clearly firmly convinced the return of Jesus was nigh and not some far off event really a great guilt free card for Masters - don't worry about your condition because in your life time Jesus is coming back (kinda missed that prediction)

    "Ephesians 4:32"

    Says nothing about a plan to end slavery

    "Galatians 3:28"

    No particular plan to end slavery. Note the larger text would seem to mostly be talking his way into why the law (for the jews) is not relevant. but the particular passaged cited by Ryan is obviously metaphorical. You claim to be born again basics did not stop being male - correct. Note this was common in classical mystery religions the same inclusiveness and sentiment would have been declared by one who was an initiate of the Eleusinian Mysteries. Still make you not a slave under Roman law.

    "Colossians 4:1"

    OK nice sophism to avoid the word slave. And great an admonition to be a nice slave owner whatever that means. Of course contradicted by Titus 2:9 were slaves are just suppoeed to such it up and obey.

    "1 Timothy 1:9-10"

    Well here we do see slaves put in the unpleasant crowd. But that can get grace and as we have seen they apparently do not need to stop plying their trade so what can say Paul a bit contradictory here but over all he seems fine with slavery.

    "Philemon 1:8-21"

    Ryan is really mouthing platitudes here. What is contained is typical Roman manumission for a slave fairly typical and nothing to do with the Jesus. The only thing that stands out is the slave would seem to have run away to Paul and been converted and Paul having come to like his is leaning on his authority in the 'church' to convince his legal master to free him. Actually Paul comes across a bit of jerk - Umm I could force you but I just asking (but I told you I could force the issue so I am not really just asking, I'm just telling)


    There is no plan to end slavery in this collection of passages.

    -------------------

    Then you have to ask the question of why did God allow Adam and Eve to sin?
    Internal logic of the OT says they had free will and were not sock puppets like you want to make out.


    --------------------

    1.

    The Polis varied but 1 -2 months before you had to leave or apply for something like the status of Metic in Athens if that was allowed given the range of the evidence. Commercial cites were more generous. Hermit states like Sparta very much less so. And of course major festivals would be exceptions as well.
    Last edited by conon394; May 29, 2023 at 12:01 AM.
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    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

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    Default Re: Moral Codes before the 10 commandments?

    conon394,

    So, in the Ten Commandments there is not one word about keeping slaves, why? Because it is wrong and counted for sin. So, why was there slavery? The answer lies with fallen man because his will being bound by sin saw nothing wrong with holding people in slavery. Yes God introduced other laws on how slaves were to be treated but there are huge differences between the Ten and those others which you can't see. If a man, any man, could keep the Ten then eternal life was assured, that is eternal life in the next world, but not one ever could, whereas the other laws were not about the next life, rather the life that they existed under.

    That is why Jesus Christ came into the world to make it possible that for some there would be a next life with God and not to the exclusion of that. But of course you don't believe that Jesus Christ completed that work at Calvary's cross or that God actually exists so what do you believe?

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    Default Re: Moral Codes before the 10 commandments?

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    conon394,

    So, in the Ten Commandments there is not one word about keeping slaves, why? Because it is wrong and counted for sin. So, why was there slavery? The answer lies with fallen man because his will being bound by sin saw nothing wrong with holding people in slavery. Yes God introduced other laws on how slaves were to be treated but there are huge differences between the Ten and those others which you can't see. If a man, any man, could keep the Ten then eternal life was assured, that is eternal life in the next world, but not one ever could, whereas the other laws were not about the next life, rather the life that they existed under.
    "So, in the Ten Commandments there is not one word about keeping slaves, why? "

    The 10 commandments cleary reference and approve of slavery.

    "Because it is wrong and counted for sin. So, why was there slavery? The answer lies with fallen man because his will being bound by sin saw nothing wrong with holding people in slavery. Yes God introduced other laws on how slaves were to be treated but there are huge differences between the Ten and those others which you can't see. If a man, any man, could keep the Ten then eternal life was assured, that is eternal life in the next world,"

    Your logic does not makes sense here. Slavery is not a sin since it approved by the commandants.

    "That is why Jesus Christ came into the world to make it possible that for some there would be a next life with God and not to the exclusion of that. But of course you don't believe that Jesus Christ completed that work at Calvary's cross."

    Certainly not in the convoluted Manichaean view you see the whole thing.

    "or that God actually exists so what do you believe?"

    This pushes off topic again and I stated my general belief before do I need to restate them again? This is not the thread for that anyway.
    Last edited by conon394; May 30, 2023 at 06:31 AM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

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    Default Re: Moral Codes before the 10 commandments?

    conon394,

    Would you please show me what your ten commandments say?

    So, what did Jesus Christ come into the world for?

    Please do tell us what you actually believe?

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    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Moral Codes before the 10 commandments?

    Would you please show me what your ten commandments say?
    There not mine not sure what you are suggesting.

    Exodus 20:17: No coveting your neighbors possessions and that includes his slaves. It clear in the text and same words used explicitly in the later books and later parts of Exodus to define slavery in the law.

    So, what did Jesus Christ come into the world for?
    For? Well presumably because his parents wanted a child. I don't believe he was god incarnate or a miraculously conceived (and I also don't think the OT says he has to be poor translation choice). Thus he came into the world for the same reason everyone else (humans that is) did a women had sex and a fertilized egg beat the odds and managed to not get destroyed by the mother's immune system before placing itself in her uterus. After that he became eventually as an adult seemily an itinerant religious preacher like many others at the time in a moment of political and religious crisis across Judea. All of various types and various levels of revolutionary aims be it vs Roman occupation or toward the religious elites in power and with various level of messianic claims. What he thought and why is of course obscured by the fact he chose not write anything down (or functionally could not?). After that than we have a subset of what people say he said and did and what we have has gone through more than a few rounds of orthodoxy editing and preferential interpretation by different bits of christianity. I strongly suspect the actual person was quite different from Jesus of Christianity delivered by Paul. And if you believe Luke two homies were ready to hand him real swords maybe in reality he was a bit closer to the zealots than Paul and the gospels claim and all that turn the other cheek stuff. Fact is contra to the Bible which makes wondering about about in Judea seem like hanging with winnie the pooh, the place was powder keg that did in fact go off. Travelling about was no picnic. There is a reason the Essenes hiked off to the middle of nowhere to store their scrolls.

    Please do tell us what you actually believe?
    About what specifically? What do I believe about the prospects for the Detroit Red Wings in the next NHL season or something about the Bible or Christianity? Or other things?

    ...on the Wings pretty good if they find a solid backup goal tender - their primary tender is solid but he's not a 80 game work horse a 60/40 slip seems ideal but the backup they have now is not up to that. They collected a lot of draft picks and could do something interesting via trade so the draft should be interesting to follow. If you mean the latter be a little more specific.

    But I guess I can toss out some attempts at answers guessing for what you want.

    The Old Testament is a collection of creation myths, laws and and some history and a more pseudo history for a particular iron age people. The same can be found over and over again many similar and many dissimilar - obviously in the region many very similar and older and thus much of the Bible is derivative. Since the creation myth taken literally is clearly at odds with the observed reality of what modern science can prove I value it no more than any other creation myths. I find its God cruel and capacious and often morally repugnant.

    I am in general unconvinced by any particular religion very much not any of the the 'Abrahamic religions'

    The New Testament amounts to a successful mystery religion (there were lots and all often had similar messages) built around a probably historical figure who never recorded his own views and has lot stuff written about him by his followers who won the Roman lottery and got to be the state religion while Rome was dying but still powerful enough to make that stick and invest the Roman and Orthodox churches with immense power and authority even after Rome collapsed in reality Thus insuring rival religions and christian variants deemed non orthodox would die by the sword and state power.

    The New Testament is the abstracted and reedited version of orthodoxy that survives and even than is subject to multiple interpretations. As a historical text it is replete with inconstancies and errors and extraordinary fantastic events that seems nobody but believers noticed and even they can't keep agreement on what happened.

    I am willing be to open minded so I call myself agnostic. But on balance no particular religion calls to me or convinces me that they are better than any other or the true path or whatever.

    I try like a Stoic do the best I can and be fair and just in my actions. Without expecting some grand afterlife reward or another go around I think I have a bit more urgency in that. I am content not knowing what happens after I die but see no reason to pick a particular made up story to make myself feel more comfortable about that uncertainty.

    I also believe I will never have an in ground yard irrigation system again. Things start leaking every bloody year and you never notice half the time till you have a double sized water bill (if you are lucky at that cost). Than the parts for the easy fix are discontinued so you end up spending more. I believe I will pull my own hoses around for the rest of my life.

    I believe that well made kotlet schaboway served with a good selection of home made perogies, kapusta z grochem (*), and Mizeria will always make me happy and see me raise a glass to my Grandmother and thank her for learning me how to make all of them all proper on the pain of harsh knuckle wrapping by a kitchen utensil. And that she mellowed and allowed French table wine was OK vs Vodka

    * although if she did cabbage in the perogies she just served the dried peas without cabbage/sauerkraut and just bacon and lard and garlic.

    I believe as my avatar might suggest a Pixie cut of varying style is really the only hair cut a women needs.

    I believe that since I worked the line at Ford to pay for university and all my relatives who retired from skilled trades were 30+ Ford people that Fords are always better than Chevys (that may not make any sense in the UK).

    I believe Nokian Hakkapeliitta snow tires are the best in the world and I am amazed they turned my daughter's Ford focus basic wagon into a snow defeating machine.




    Should I ramble on or did I cover your question sufficiently?
    Last edited by conon394; June 01, 2023 at 06:48 AM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

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    Default Re: Moral Codes before the 10 commandments?

    conon394,

    So, you dodge writing down the Ten Commandments and then go on to say from Exodus 20, that the Israelites were not to covet their neighbours possessions including their slaves which show us that slavery was wrong ahd the Jews were not to desire them. Well done!

    As for Jesus Christ you've got that all wrong because His mother never had sexual relations as she testifies with a man when she became pregnant with Jesus and did so according to many prophecies made hundreds of years before. When growing up He helped Joseph in the carpentry trade meaning that not only would He need to read but write as well if only to get measurements right. He knew from Where He came and What He would have to do when the time came and so, not for one moment was He not God in the Flesh. He came into this world to pay for the sins of all them for whom He would die and never in all human history has a Man such as Him had the effect that He had and still does.

    So, what you have written holds no surprises.

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    Default Re: Moral Codes before the 10 commandments?

    As for Jesus Christ you've got that all wrong because His mother never had sexual relations as she testifies with a man when she became pregnant with Jesus and did so according to many prophecies made hundreds of years before
    Err what prophecy. And great a claim made in texts written about Jesus after his death for believers by believers who umm kinda had to wrestle with the fact the Roman's offed the messiah. Let's see how this works - do you believe that Mohamed talked to an angel or that Joseph Smith talked to Jesus and he told him to found the LDS church? Apparently not since I gather you are neither a Muslim nor a member of the LDS. So you seem quite happy to disbelieve other fantastic stories for and by other believers many of them who have self professed faith as strong as yours. Not sure how that works.

    His mother never had sexual relations as she testifies
    Really she did? We have court record. A filing with a Roman magistrate? A body of letters in her own name saying such? An inscribed lead letter or pottery ostrakon to her relatives? No no we don't do we. We have a mythical virgin birth which must you know quite common in hero stories across the region and it in most of the competing mystery religions with christianity in the Hellenistic world

    many prophecies
    Sure just like Paul and NT gospel company were sure you would be seeing jesus in their lifetimes coming back.

    He knew from Where He came and What He would have to do when the time came and so, not for one moment was He not God in the Flesh. He came into this world to pay for the sins of all them for whom He would die and never in all human history has a Man such as Him had the effect that He had and still does.
    That is one version. If you say so I guess somebody had to pay in Augustine's made up Manachian world that does not really exist in the OT - but on balance seems like a really convoluted and inefficient process for an all power god who looks like he just kind of ignored a problem he created (or not you need the NT appended on the OT for it) for a long time and than came up with as I said a piss poor solution that does not even help till you die if you are lucky enough to run into it.Opinions have varied. I can think of more than a few things that have had a more profound effect on human history than the mystery cult founded nominaly by Jesus. On balance I would say Mohamed and Buddha were equally as influential if you just want to do religion (and toss in the collection of traditional beliefs and philosophies that China produced). In any case please define this effect you assert. Realistically I would be prepared to assert that mystery religions with golden afterlifes are in fact rather deleterious in many cases.

    So, what you have written holds no surprises.
    Then why ask? I have more or less have made all those views known here and you will have read them well not the idle ones I tossed in.

    When growing up He helped Joseph in the carpentry trade meaning that not only would He need to read but write as well if only to get measurements right.
    Maybe, maybe not there is a very large difference between minimal functional literacy and using a measuring string and being well educated and able to read and write effectively (*). Since Jesus left no writing of his own we will not be getting an answer.

    So, you dodge writing down the Ten Commandments and then go on to say from Exodus 20, that the Israelites were not to covet their neighbours possessions including their slaves which show us that slavery was wrong ahd the Jews were not to desire them. Well done!
    Umm you grasp of the logic of the passage I cited is clearly poor. How can I be dodging when I cite the passage directly. And please really when oft time I have to track down your dumped unsourced text or vague waving at youtube and post them - I will not accept an accusation of dodging.

    The ten commandments start laying down of law for ancient Israelites - supposedly from the mouth of god and after one assumes inspired or additional dictation. The neighbors in 20:17 are either Israelites or legal dwellers with them not foreigners. Thus thou shalt not kill is clearly a dictate for internal regulation since the Israelites were happy kill foreigners (Just ask the residents of Jericho or Moab). The word used is slave and later parts of the law make that certain the keeping foreigners as slaves was legal using the same words. 20:17 is clearly a dictate to not covet your fellow Israelites property be it a wife or slave or livestock. Slavery is clearly not a sin in the ten commandments and in the larger law.

    Also accuse somebody of dodging is tad rich given the way you fail to respond to direct questions, ignore or drop any issue where you assertion is contradicted with facts (or drop with out comment of your somebody else's text) and then generally around to claiming god magic if that does not work.

    ...and really no thoughts on automotive issues, sports, hair styles or the best way to water your lawn, hmm... You did ask an open-ended question your response is well rather terse, I suppose I should be hurt.

    *
    The image below is a sort of crude representation. But it covers the key points in any case sorry I cant find an image of the Stele I want on line. Oh well. You see Athens imposed its weights and measure on its arche for trade efficiency. And thus in Markets of the polis in the Arche they had erected guides. The picture capture the essence. Exact lines to show the measures. Aad the name in greek obviously. But also body reference relating to the nominal way the measure were derived. That is importantly an indication for people doing trade who might not be literate as to which measure was which.





    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Last edited by conon394; June 01, 2023 at 03:29 PM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

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    Default Re: Moral Codes before the 10 commandments?

    conon394,

    Try Isaiah 7:14 for that part of the prophecies about Him. And yes, I believe that Mohammed thought he talked with an angel and Joseph Smith believed he talked with Jesus but not The Lord Jesus Christ or one of His angels, why? Because in both cases neither believe that Jesus Christ is God.

    As for Mary not being a virgin even when she became betrothed to Joseph that is nonsense because if what you say were true then Joseph wouldn't have even gone near her never mind get betrothed to her.

    Regarding His return where it is said this generation shall see it that is quite true because when He does return both the dead and the living will see it as " every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord." If we look at it in the narrower sense then all those that saw Him after His resurrection certainly fulfill that.

    As for His capabilities regarding reading and writing may I ask you Whom was it that put the Ten Commandments onto the two plaques of stone? Answer, the Same Person Who wrote in the dirt when the Jews were about to stone the woman caught in adultery whilst saying, " Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." As for Him Personally leaving without written statements I just quoted two events that prove you wrong and as for the rest he had His prophets and disciples speak for Him in both Testaments, why?
    Because their writings are His Gospel, the only way a person can be saved from their sin.

    Finally, if slavery is not wrong why don't you have any presuming you don't?

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    Default Re: Moral Codes before the 10 commandments?

    Finally, if slavery is not wrong why don't you have any presuming you don't?
    How have we now shifted to what I think about slavery? The question was about the Ten Commandments and the related additional laws in the Bible and what god seems to have been fine with. In any case quite without the brutal capricious god of the Old Testament or the opiate of the masses revised New Testament version - I am quite able to conclude slavery is wrong. I will allow that I can understand why in the pre energy economy and pre modern medicine era that utilitarian ethics would open a window to why people would justify the practice.

    Since my moral code is not constructed on the 10 commandments why would I own slaves. The point was that your God was chill with slavery and made no particular effort to stop it.

    Regarding His return where it is said this generation shall see it that is quite true because when He does return both the dead and the living will see it as " every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord." If we look at it in the narrower sense then all those that saw Him after His resurrection certainly fulfill that.
    Both of those answers are sophistry. In any the latter also fails since its what believers say happened after the fact. You yourself have already provided the basis for dismissing it in the same way you dismiss Mohamed.

    As for Mary not being a virgin even when she became betrothed to Joseph that is nonsense because if what you say were true then Joseph wouldn't have even gone near her never mind get betrothed to her.
    That is not what I meant. I meant that assertion she conceived via mystical means and not sex presumably with her husband. That was clear from the context.

    As for His capabilities regarding reading and writing may I ask you Whom was it that put the Ten Commandments onto the two plaques of stone?
    If there was some set I assume it created by some paid stone mason. But seeing as Moses, like a lot law givers is highly mythologized I am certain is was not Jesus dictating since of course I don't believe that person was the son of god or god or whatever variant of Christianity you pick. But if you take the OT at face value it was a singular God dictating to Moses and the weird construction of the authors of the New Testament and their Jesus.

    the Same Person Who wrote in the dirt when the Jews were about to stone the woman caught in adultery whilst saying, " Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."
    Well that is what some well educated christian wrote that - I give you that well after the potential fact.

    As for Him Personally leaving without written statements I just quoted two events that prove you wrong and as for the rest he had His prophets and disciples speak for Him in both Testaments, why? Because their writings are His Gospel, the only way a person can be saved from their sin.


    So you say but of course that is not any more valid than whet people following Mohamed or
    Joseph Smith say.

    Isaiah 7:14


    almah, err a young women will give birth umm OK - don't see much basis for fantastical mystery birth. But I know your version of Christianity depends on a fair number of forced translations so no surprise.
    Last edited by conon394; June 02, 2023 at 02:54 PM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

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    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Moral Codes before the 10 commandments?

    conon394,

    So, after all this you concede that the Ten Commandments do not say one word about slavery?

    As for Mary, you asserted that you had proof that she was not a virgin so where is it?

    Concerning the two plaques of stone and how they were made John, probably the closest to Jesus, tells us the He made everything, that there was nothing that was made but it was made by Him confirming what I wrote. If there is only one God why is He called Elohim which is a plural name?

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    Default Re: Moral Codes before the 10 commandments?

    So, after all this you concede that the Ten Commandments do not say one word about slavery?
    Umm how did you get that out my post - they explicitly approve of slavery. You asked me if I owned slaves or why not and I pointed out that was outside of the argument and that since I don't follow the 10 commandments its irrelevant.

    As for Mary, you asserted that you had proof that she was not a virgin so where is it?
    Wow you are on a roll of putting words in my mouth. I never said she that she was not virgin when married to her husband (I mean she may not have been but certainly here parents would asserted such). I don't understand Isaiah 7:14 to be a prophecy about a magical god birth. And the key point is you asked what I believed and I said Mary simply had a normal birth. Then later after his death his followers simply invented a magical creation story for Jesus.

    Concerning the two plaques of stone and how they were made John, probably the closest to Jesus, tells us the He made everything, that there was nothing that was made but it was made by Him confirming what I wrote.
    The anonymous authors of John my assert such but that's just assering what they say Jesus said quite after his death. Technicaly that is no more real than Mohamed's angelic dictation sessions.

    If there is only one God why is He called Elohim which is a plural name?
    I have already responded to your assertion on this before.
    Last edited by conon394; June 03, 2023 at 08:35 PM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

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    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Moral Codes before the 10 commandments?

    conon394,

    The initial argument was about what is contained in the Ten Commandments by which a man if he could keep them " would live," eternally, not the laws that were added later.

    Quoted by you," Really she did? We have court record. A filing with a Roman magistrate? A body of letters in her own name saying such? An inscribed lead letter or pottery ostrakon to her relatives? No no we don't do we. We have a mythical virgin birth which must you know quite common in hero stories across the region and it in most of the competing mystery religions with christianity in the Hellenistic world." The woman was still alive when writings about her Son were being sent to the infant churches to verify her virginity as well as her interaction with Gabriel concerning Who in fact Jesus was. Indeed, she kept it from her other children until we find that James also had a vision directly from Jesus to become a believer followed by Jude, both of whom have letters or books in the Bible. No my friend, she was unknown to any man when she fell pregnant with Jesus.

    Now, whether John or a scribe did the writing is immaterial simply because from Genesis to the Revelation of Jesus Christ everything points to the coming " seed " Who would contend with Satan for the souls of fallen men and women clearly written about in all the history of Israel as they carried that message. That " seed " was Jesus Christ born of a woman never before touched by a man so that He Alone could pay for what is asked as the price of sin. Not another human being could do that but Immanuel did.

    Elohim means Gods in Father, Son and Holy Spirit, Three Persons incorporated in the One Being yet Each One capable of doing separate things but never in contradiction to Their very Being or Nature.

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    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Moral Codes before the 10 commandments?

    The initial argument was about what is contained in the Ten Commandments by which a man if he could keep them " would live," eternally, not the laws that were added later.
    Whatever I see nothing to indicated they promised living forever in the Old Testament. But fine now we are sticking with just the originals set - they still codify slavery as fine. So are you now suggesting the rest of the stuff is written by men than for men?

    The woman was still alive when writings about her Son were being sent to the infant churches to verify her virginity as well as her interaction with Gabriel concerning Who in fact Jesus was. Indeed, she kept it from her other children until we find that James also had a vision directly from Jesus to become a believer followed by Jude, both of whom have letters or books in the Bible. No my friend, she was unknown to any man when she fell pregnant with Jesus.
    So we have a made up story. By people writing about Jesus well after his death and conveniently involving visons. I certainly doubt Jude either assumed as the as the apostle or the brother of Jesus could produce the work in question in Koine Greek.

    simply because from Genesis to the Revelation of Jesus Christ everything points to the coming " seed " Who would contend with Satan for the souls of fallen men and women clearly written about in all the history of Israel as they carried that message. That " seed " was Jesus Christ born of a woman never before touched by a man so that He Alone could pay for what is asked as the price of sin. Not another human being could do that but Immanuel did.
    Your chosen understanding of the seed passage is a more or less a willful mistranslation. Your generalized fallen world stuff is Manacheanism developed by Augustine.

    Elohim means Gods in Father, Son and Holy Spirit, Three Persons incorporated in the One Being yet Each One capable of doing separate things but never in contradiction to Their very Being or Nature.
    Give that while the word may plural it is otherwise embedded in singular sentences - saying it means your concept of the trinity is not a strong argument.
    Last edited by conon394; June 05, 2023 at 09:11 AM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

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