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    Default The Battle of Baghdad 1258 - The Mongol Invasion

    I've recently been reading up on the effects expansionism has had on the Middle East and while going over the Battle of Baghdad it brought back to light the wanton destruction the region had been sujected to. It seems the destruction caused to the area denied it centuries of prosperity.

    At the time of the invasion Baghdad had only recently seen its peak. It had a population of approximately one million residents, and an army that was 60,000 strong and, although the caliph was only a figurehead, controlled by Mamluk or Turkic warlords, Baghdad was still a rich and cultured city, pivotal to the Islamic world.

    Here are some records of the wanton destruction that occured:


    • The Grand Library of Baghdad containing countless precious historical documents and books on subjects ranging from medicine to astronomy, was destroyed. Survivors said that the waters of the Tigris ran black with ink from the enormous quantities of books flung into the river.



    • Citizens attempted to flee, but were intercepted by Mongol soldiers who killed with abandon. Martin Sicker writes that close to 90,000 people may have died (Sicker 2000, p. 111). Other estimates go much higher. Wassaf claims the loss of life was several hundred thousand. Ian Frazier of The New Yorker says estimates of the death toll have ranged from 200,000 to a million.



    • The Mongols looted and then destroyed mosques, palaces, libraries, and hospitals. Grand buildings that had been the work of generations were burned to the ground.



    • The caliph was captured and forced to watch as his citizens were murdered and his treasury plundered. According to most accounts, the caliph was killed by trampling. The Mongols rolled the caliph up in a rug, and rode their horses over him, as they believed that the earth was offended if touched by royal blood. All but one of his sons were killed, and the sole surviving son was sent to Mongolia.



    • Hulagu had to move his camp upwind of the city, due to the stench of decay from the ruined city.



    • Furthermore, historians, such as Frazier, believe that the Mongol invasion destroyed much of the irrigation infrastructure that had sustained Mesopotamia for many millennia. Canals were cut as a military tactic and never repaired. So many people died or fled that neither the labor nor the organization were sufficient to maintain the canal system. It broke down or silted up. This theory was advanced by historian Svatopluk Soucek.


    Frazier states how "Baghdad was a depopulated, ruined city for several centuries and only gradually recovered some of its former glory." Indeed, some 'victory' this was by the Mongols. My consideration is what if the West had been 'depopulated' as such. Is it reasonable to suggest that Iraq would and could have become a far more prosperous land? Iraq in 1258 was very different from present day Iraq. Its agriculture was supported by canal networks thousands of years old. Baghdad was one of the most brilliant intellectual centers in the world. The Mongol destruction of Baghdad was a psychological blow from which Islam never recovered. Already Islam was turning inward, becoming more suspicious of conflicts between faith and reason and more conservative. With the sack of Baghdad, the intellectual flowering of Islam was snuffed out. Imagine the Athens of Pericles and Aristotle obliterated by a nuclear weapon begins to suggest the enormity of the blow.

    Subsequently under the Tirumids, while Central Asia blossomed under his reign, other places such as Baghdad, Damascus, Delhi and other Arab, Persian, Indian and Turkic cities were sacked and destroyed, and countless slaughtered. While Timur still retains a positive image in Central Asia, he is also vilified by many in Arab, Persian and Indian societies as are the Mongols.

    Two questions that interest me that I would like the board to comment on.

    1) The implications for modern day Iraq if sackings of the Baghdad region did not occur?

    and,

    2) What if the Mongols had not overstreched themselves to such a degree, if they had persevered to set up governemnts and impose civil order through bureaucracy, and subsequently if the Mamluks had not beaten the Mongols back in Syria and the - what fate would have befallen the West?
    Last edited by Vince Noir; March 25, 2009 at 12:06 PM.

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    Default Re: The Battle of Baghdad 1258 - The Mongol Invasion

    Well the Mongol invasion was a blow to Islamic Civilization from which it never recovered. China is only recovering today. The Mongols brought nothing to the Middle-East and Central Asia execpt death. 80% of central asia died and 40 to 50 % of the population of the middle east. Their conquests cost 60 000 000 lives as much as WW2 but this was 800 years ago. This is a major reason why Asian Civilazations started to decay while European civilzation started to rise. If the Genghis Khan was stranged at birth A LOT more people would be alive today. Also we would be much more advanced, maybe we would have achieved the feat of going to the moon 100 years ago cos well the mongols did nearly destroy the leading civilzations of the time. Would be like if today aliens came and destroyed USA and its silicon valley and Europe with its Oxford Uni. We lose centruies of progress but maybe the internet can save it but back then there was no internet.

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    Default Re: The Battle of Baghdad 1258 - The Mongol Invasion

    Quote Originally Posted by 6644kp View Post
    Well the Mongol invasion was a blow to Islamic Civilization from which it never recovered. China is only recovering today. The Mongols brought nothing to the Middle-East and Central Asia execpt death. 80% of central asia died and 40 to 50 % of the population of the middle east. Their conquests cost 60 000 000 lives as much as WW2 but this was 800 years ago. This is a major reason why Asian Civilazations started to decay while European civilzation started to rise. If the Genghis Khan was stranged at birth A LOT more people would be alive today. Also we would be much more advanced, maybe we would have achieved the feat of going to the moon 100 years ago cos well the mongols did nearly destroy the leading civilzations of the time. Would be like if today aliens came and destroyed USA and its silicon valley and Europe with its Oxford Uni. We lose centruies of progress but maybe the internet can save it but back then there was no internet.
    Overexaggeration, right?
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    Default Re: The Battle of Baghdad 1258 - The Mongol Invasion

    Quote Originally Posted by ♥Ŝåƒϊ♥ ٭τЋєąŧї View Post
    Overexaggeration, right?
    Overexaggeration is an understatement...

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    Default Re: The Battle of Baghdad 1258 - The Mongol Invasion

    i didnt exagurate go look at the wiki page of mongol conquests. you will see that the mongol conquest was one of the worst things to happen to the people of asia. entire cities were burned to the ground, the baghdad of today is not the one founded by the arabs its a new city build on top of the old site were the city once stood.

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    Icon1 Re: The Battle of Baghdad 1258 - The Mongol Invasion

    Quote Originally Posted by 6644kp View Post
    . If the Genghis Khan was stranged at birth A LOT more people would be alive today.
    There might just have been another equally brutal Khaganate in its place. There had already been at least four huge empires based in Mongolia. One of them, the Gokturks, managed to cross the Crimean Bosphorous into Europe and attack the Persians several times as well. Fortunately they didn't succeed, and they were pro-Chinese so China was safe.

    They ended up falling to civil war like all the great Khaganates have. Stability doesn't seem like a Mongolian tradition.

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    Default Re: The Battle of Baghdad 1258 - The Mongol Invasion

    Quote Originally Posted by 6644kp View Post
    China is only recovering today. The Mongols brought nothing to the Middle-East and Central Asia execpt death. 80% of central asia died and 40 to 50 % of the population of the middle east. Their conquests cost 60 000 000 lives as much as WW2 but this was 800 years ago. This is a major reason why Asian Civilazations started to decay while European civilzation started to rise. If the Genghis Khan was stranged at birth A LOT more people would be alive today. Also we would be much more advanced, maybe we would have achieved the feat of going to the moon 100 years ago cos well the mongols did nearly destroy the leading civilzations of the time. Would be like if today aliens came and destroyed USA and its silicon valley and Europe with its Oxford Uni. We lose centruies of progress but maybe the internet can save it but back then there was no internet.
    Well, I personally believe that China caused it's own downfall. Afterall, their were quite some powerful dynasties in China after the Mongols ( the Qing dynasty springs to mind, as do the Ming). However, their inability to look outside their own nation and their lack of colonial ambition that the Europenas had doomed them in the end, not the Mongol invasion, which might have actually caused some good in China. Afterall, they opened the borders to outside influence, which was a very good thing. China's belief of only caring about themsleves let the Europenas surpass them, and let the Europeans and even Japan ( who decided to get their act together and start caring about nations outside of their own) bend China to their will.
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    Default Re: The Battle of Baghdad 1258 - The Mongol Invasion

    Quote Originally Posted by cottontail View Post
    Well, I personally believe that China caused it's own downfall. Afterall, their were quite some powerful dynasties in China after the Mongols ( the Qing dynasty springs to mind, as do the Ming). However, their inability to look outside their own nation and their lack of colonial ambition that the Europenas had doomed them in the end, not the Mongol invasion, which might have actually caused some good in China. Afterall, they opened the borders to outside influence, which was a very good thing. China's belief of only caring about themsleves let the Europenas surpass them, and let the Europeans and even Japan ( who decided to get their act together and start caring about nations outside of their own) bend China to their will.
    It would be better to analyse why Western Powers had to start colonialism in the first place...scarcity or resources, is what comes to my mind. Why should a prosperous land look to colonize other countries ? At least history doesnot show any such example.

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    Default Re: The Battle of Baghdad 1258 - The Mongol Invasion

    Quote Originally Posted by The Friend View Post
    It would be better to analyse why Western Powers had to start colonialism in the first place...scarcity or resources, is what comes to my mind. Why should a prosperous land look to colonize other countries ? At least history doesnot show any such example.

    France was pretty prosperous ( maybe not on the scale of China) and they colonized quite a bit. In the end though, who won? The Europeans who looked outside their own countries to dominate the world, or the Chinese who sat in their own nation, not caring about anything else until the Europeans came knocking on their doorstep, far more advanced?

    Though I must admit, lots of rescources can sometimes be a bane to power. Look at India, plenty of rescources, but did not have much power for long periods of time.
    Sons of Queen Dido, Warriors of Libye (EB AAR)
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    A Carthagian AAR about the life of a Libyan Phoenician soldier in the army of Carthage, giving his own account and personal opinions of the battles and conquests Carthage undertakes.

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    Default Re: The Battle of Baghdad 1258 - The Mongol Invasion

    While the Mongol sacks were brutal and near total, they weren't as crippling as one may think given the propensity for civilization to come back. This happened in Central Iran, which suffered no less destruction by Genghis Khan's initial invasions, but managed to bloom into a new renaissance soon after.

    What sealed Mesopotamia's fate was its development into no-man's land during the Ottoman-Safavid wars. This disruption of agriculture and development as the region changed hands violently and repeatedly added onto the general decay overall of the region as trade became slowly circumvented through Portuguese and northern Ottoman trade routes. This turned a once important crossroads of trade into a backwater to dangerous and too poor to bother with.

    What also made Baghdad powerful economically and intellectually, the guilds and the school institutions, found patronage in greater and richer cities to the west and to the east.

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    Default Re: The Battle of Baghdad 1258 - The Mongol Invasion

    What sealed Mesopotamia's fate was its development into no-man's land during the Ottoman-Safavid wars.
    This. Iraq had the economic propensity to recover from the Mongol sack, like just about every other area that suffered, but its early modern place as little more than a stage of war for competing powers made its recovery nigh impossible.

    I'll add the instability this role added to the region allowed numbers of tribal Bedouin to migrate to the area, further adding to its fragility, lack of cohesion, and dangerousness.
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    Default Re: The Battle of Baghdad 1258 - The Mongol Invasion

    I've read about the Battle of Baghdad a couple of times. It makes me wonder why exactly nomads are so brutal in warfare. It would make a great movie though.


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    Default Re: The Battle of Baghdad 1258 - The Mongol Invasion

    Quote Originally Posted by Sher Khan View Post
    While the Mongol sacks were brutal and near total, they weren't as crippling as one may think given the propensity for civilization to come back. This happened in Central Iran, which suffered no less destruction by Genghis Khan's initial invasions, but managed to bloom into a new renaissance soon after.

    What sealed Mesopotamia's fate was its development into no-man's land during the Ottoman-Safavid wars. This disruption of agriculture and development as the region changed hands violently and repeatedly added onto the general decay overall of the region as trade became slowly circumvented through Portuguese and northern Ottoman trade routes. This turned a once important crossroads of trade into a backwater to dangerous and too poor to bother with.

    What also made Baghdad powerful economically and intellectually, the guilds and the school institutions, found patronage in greater and richer cities to the west and to the east.
    Points noted. I have yet to read that far into it, I am just coming upto the Ottoman dominance.




    Quote Originally Posted by D.B. Cooper View Post
    I've read about the Battle of Baghdad a couple of times. It makes me wonder why exactly nomads are so brutal in warfare. It would make a great movie though.
    I agree, but there aren't enough historical movies coming out today. And if they do, they are largely inaccurate. In this case they could stick to historical facts and it would still make a brilliant story. Partiuclalry how Baghadad was betrayed by Al-'Alqami, who kept on writing to the Mongols, inviting them to invade the land and promosing the riches it kept.

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    Default Re: The Battle of Baghdad 1258 - The Mongol Invasion

    Well, there was one section of society that was actually well-off in the Siege of Baghdad. That was the Nestorians or the Church of the East. Significant numbers of Hulegu's army contained Nestorians and the fact that one of his wives was a Nestorian helped protect the Nestorians within a particular quarter of Baghdad. The Nestorians were particularly supportive of the Mongol attack (ironic due to the massacre of Nestorians in other cities) because of the Christian contingent in the Mongol armies but as a form of revenge against what they percieved was a sense of discrimination and persecution by the Abbasids to varying degrees up till 1258.
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    Default Re: The Battle of Baghdad 1258 - The Mongol Invasion

    the mongol empire was also a boon for knowledge and trade... creating a temporary asia wide marketplace and assembling some of the greatest minds of both east and west under the direction and protection of a single government (even if it was prone to splintering)...

    the result was persian and arab scholars working in china, and chinese working in perisa etc etc... chinese diplomats visited the cities of europe and europeans travelled as far as china with the protection of a single government.

    the way i see it, is kind of like a forest fire. there are some varieties of tree which cant seed or germinate unless there's been a forest fire which destroys everything. once the fire has gone, these trees grow up in the rich ash laden soil that's left behind.

    of course, the mongols were brutal like few others and this is unforgivable but there's always another side to it...
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    Default Re: The Battle of Baghdad 1258 - The Mongol Invasion

    Quote Originally Posted by antea View Post

    the way i see it, is kind of like a forest fire. there are some varieties of tree which cant seed or germinate unless there's been a forest fire which destroys everything. once the fire has gone, these trees grow up in the rich ash laden soil that's left behind.
    Great analogy. I appreciate that fact.

    Expanionism is largley responsible for most cultural interaction thus opening the door to cultural progression. Creative destruction. Like the fall of the Mongol Empire that led to the collapse of the Silk Road's political unity. Also falling victim were the cultural and economic aspects of its unity. Turkic tribes seized the western end of the Silk Road from the decaying Byzantine Empire, and sowed the seeds of a Turkic culture that would later crystallize into the Ottoman Empire.

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    Default Re: The Battle of Baghdad 1258 - The Mongol Invasion

    off topic/

    over simplification/

    colonisation from a european perspective started out as an extension of the trade in luxuries. it didnt happen because france or spain etc didnt have enough resources to survive and thrive, but because they bought valuables off other cultures... and from the spanish perspective... decided to cut out the middle men by creating its own trade network with direct links to the source of these desirable exotic goods.. the first colonies put together by the spanish and portugese were fortresses and watering points around africa to india to enable direct trade between them and india and china...

    it was only later that they thought... "hey, why dont we just control the production of these resources too" this was an evolutionary process that the chinese did partake in at various points... dominating trade as far as india and africa doing what the europeans did in reverse... but for reasons debated in the many 1421 threads.. the chinese decided that there wasnt much out there that they needed to go after.. as for who won in the colonial game.. certainly not france... china is a vast and powerful nation which controls more territory now than it did before the colonial period so that is a whole other debate.

    /over simplification

    /off topic
    Last edited by antea; March 26, 2009 at 07:43 PM.
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    Default Re: The Battle of Baghdad 1258 - The Mongol Invasion

    Lets JIHAD on Mongolia!!! GRRRR!!!

    Anyway, for me the biggest loss during the Mongol Invasion was only the Grand Library of Baghdad. As far as I know in 1258 the Abbassid Caliphate was already declining culturally and economically. The centers of Islamic Civilization already moved to Al Andalus and Egypt. The Mongol Invasion merely quickened the death of the Abbasid Caliphate. But once again I cant imagine how much invaluable historical records were lost from the library ...


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    Default Re: The Battle of Baghdad 1258 - The Mongol Invasion

    Hulagu is my favorite Mongol Khan. He's such a poet. I loved his letter to the Caliph. And later when he killed him because his brother told him not to spill any of the caliph's blood on the earth, instead he rolled him up in a carpet and trampled him with horses to death.
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    Default Re: The Battle of Baghdad 1258 - The Mongol Invasion

    Quote Originally Posted by Carpathian Wolf View Post
    Hulagu is my favorite Mongol Khan. He's such a poet. I loved his letter to the Caliph. And later when he killed him because his brother told him not to spill any of the caliph's blood on the earth, instead he rolled him up in a carpet and trampled him with horses to death.
    Hulagu the poet !!!! it sounds weird, these letters you mention were written -probably- by Nasir-adin al tusi or Atta-adin al juwayni. cuz simply hulagu neither did spoke Arabic (the official language of the Abbasid caliphate) nor persian...
    and by the way vince. the Abbasid army defeated the mongolian army twice and forced them to retreat to their base in Mosul.. but the chinese engineers who occampaigned the mongols destroyed the dams on the tigris river so the river flood and destroyed the Abbasid army encampments,thus the Abbasid army was destroyed and the suvivors fled to the capital, following the battle Kitabuqa besieged the western side of baghdad while hulage besieged the eastern side.


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