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Thread: The celts

  1. #21
    dutch musketeer's Avatar Libertus
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    Default Re: The celts

    first faction i am going to play with is the CELTS
    'I have never made but one prayer to God, a very short one: "Oh Lord, make my enemies ridiculous." And God granted it.' -Voltaire

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  2. #22
    Genava's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: The celts

    first faction i am going to play with is the CELTS
    Me too, I will play a gallic faction.

  3. #23
    Phalanx300's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: The celts

    I will play as the Koinen, rather play with a Lakedaemon faction but thats not going to happen, at least in EB2 it isn't . But yeah, the faction with Spartans and Hoplites and Poleis first . Belgae maybe as well, I probably have Frankish ancestors who lived in Chatii area so Sweboz as well. I'm Dutch by the way which is why I like these Germanic-PseudoGermanic factions .

    At least its nice to see some Celtic discussion! To bad that there are only 6 nations who still speak partly Celtic.

  4. #24
    Mulattothrasher's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: The celts

    Ok, I remembered this British coin from one of my Cunliffe books. Coin and caption show a round shield used by a British cavalryman:


  5. #25
    Genava's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: The celts

    The same coin of the same series:


    do you prefer this image?


    I really don't see in what the second character has a rectangular shield. The problem it is that in this book, there is only there that it speaks about round shield. I am not a specialist in Britons but I know well the Gallic and the riders did not use round shield.


    A Arverni coin, it's a standard-bearer. It's Epad coins about which I spoke before.
    I always think that the use of round shield is rare, only for the standard-bearer. One can always make the contest of that which with the most coin with a shield but I know that for Gaul, the coins show a primarily oval shield.

  6. #26
    Genava's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: The celts

    If you want information on the equipment used by the Gallic warriors, I would be happy to help you. On this link, you can see a summary of the book of Andre Rapin but it was published in 1983. The illustrations are right except that at the time we did not know that the Celts used leather armours. It misses also the details on the vegetal style (Wadalgesheim style and its by-products: plastic style and style of the swords) during the third century BC.
    http://www.gallicobelgae.org/la_tene_chronology.htm
    Last edited by Genava; April 05, 2009 at 11:26 AM.

  7. #27
    Mulattothrasher's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: The celts

    The round shield could have easily been used in Gaul, especially when you consider that the Belgae originated from the continent/northern Gaul. Upon settling in Britain, they would have certainly brought their military equipment, including round shields, with them to Britain.

  8. #28
    Genava's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: The celts

    Why would the Belgians have brought the round shields whereas the Pictish ones used small shields? I asked Jean-Paul Brethenoux and Franck Mathieu on the forum of Arbre-Celtique, they affirmed me that the cavalry did not use a round shield.

    Which is the utility of a round shield for the cavalry? Pausanias speaks about Celts unseating itself to start the combat with the enemy after having immobilized their mountings using small stakes. Cesar says the same thing for Britons which gets out of their chariots to fight. A round shield would be inappropriate. Stephen Allen is a specialist of the Celts and in its work, all the illustrations show riders with oval shields.

  9. #29
    Mulattothrasher's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: The celts

    Quote Originally Posted by Genava View Post
    Why would the Belgians have brought the round shields
    They came from northern Gaul so they brought what they already fought with.

    whereas the Pictish ones used small shields?
    I do not know...Maybe it was used in Britain before the Belgae arrived?

    I asked Jean-Paul Brethenoux and Franck Mathieu on the forum of Arbre-Celtique, they affirmed me that the cavalry did not use a round shield.
    Then what is the rider on the coin holding?

    Which is the utility of a round shield for the cavalry? Pausanias speaks about Celts unseating itself to start the combat with the enemy after having immobilized their mountings using small stakes. Cesar says the same thing for Britons which gets out of their chariots to fight. A round shield would be inappropriate. Stephen Allen is a specialist of the Celts and in its work, all the illustrations show riders with oval shields.
    I have illustrations where the riders has round shields


    You gave Australian universities a very bad reputation when you said:
    I will be direct, a university of Australia is not best placed to speak about the Celts.
    Well, heres a French coin site that mentions the same thing. Look at coin #9. It is similar to the 'Australian coin'. Do you think the French and Australians are bad at Celtic coins?: http://www.sacra-moneta.com/Numismat...-romaines.html

  10. #30

    Default Re: The celts

    I will be direct, a university of Australia is not best placed to speak about the Celts.
    So any European university is incapable of learning you anything about American, African, Asian or Oceanic history?

    Geneva, you are possibly right that the oval shield was the most popular. But you seem to ignore all evidence that they may have used round shields. I mean when you see a round shield on a coin you actually say they meant to draw an oval shield, because the circle drawn isn't geometrically perfect.

    You also say:
    I do not say that the Celts did not use the round shield, but certainly not for the infantry of first line and not for the cavalry. A peasant can use a round shield, but he prefers use a common oval shield.
    I think that's oversimplifying Celtic war society here... Evidence shows us that the oval type was indeed the most popular and became even more popular by the time the Romans arrived, but the round shield was still around. I agree that the cavalry units in EB, carrying all a round shield, are possibly wrongly depicted, but so far I haven't seen anything in this thread that makes me even consider that NO celtic cavalryman would EVER use a round shield, as you claim.

  11. #31
    Genava's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: The celts

    Excuse me for the remark on the Australian university, I wanted just to say that France to the advantage of knowing about the sources immediately.
    I am skeptical on this coin, but it can be a question of a shield of carrier of carnyx as standard-bearer.

    I insist on the oval shield because of the versatility of the Celtic troops. An oval shield with the advantage of being useful as much on horse that with foot.

    There is a coin only, where a round shield is seen, but even not of face. A great majority of coins show an oval shield.

    The Gallic equipment is very developed and one can note that the equipment of Roman cavalry evolves by adapting the saddle to horn of Gallic AND the shield oval after the punic wars (according to the work of Silvio Mattesini on the Roman legion).


    To say that the Belgians brought the round shields is a speculation. Nothing proves it.


    I have illustrations where the riders has round shields
    I have illustrations which show the opposite. But an illustration is used only as support to a historian.

    The round shield is not appropriate for the style of combat of the Celts since the handle of the shield is in the center and that to protect itself it is necessary to plate the shield against the shoulder and the knee. Against a lance or a long sword, a round shield does not protect the legs and the Celts used rarely greaves.

    The only soldiers who used round shields were the velites or the peltasts. Even at the samnites, the shield was oval.

  12. #32
    olipro's Avatar Civis
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    Default Re: The celts

    Je suis desolé genava, mais ta BD ce n'est absolument pas un "comic", c'est une bande dessinée, visiblement d'école européenne. voila je voulais m'insurger, c'est fait

    in english : I said to Genava that this comic is not a "comic", but a ... "???" I don't know the english word, but in french, we make a difference between comics (american), manga (japanese) and "???" (classic european school)
    Mont-joye Saint-Denis !
    Puisse mon épée éviscérer l'envahisseur étranger.

  13. #33
    Genava's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: The celts

    Salut camarade linguistique
    Les séries de BD comme "Astérix" se nomme en anglais: French comic books. (wikipédia)
    D'ailleurs si tu t'intéresses aux Celtes, cette BD est une bonne base

  14. #34
    olipro's Avatar Civis
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    Default Re: The celts

    ça j'en suis certain ! Et j'aime bien le dessin

    (we are talking about that comic, he said that the english call that a comic, but I really disagree the english word for that... by the way, osef)
    Mont-joye Saint-Denis !
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  15. #35

    Default Re: The celts

    There's only one word for it. Comic, bande desinnée, stripverhaal,...

    Sometimes we use loan-words to make clear where they come from: the one used in every languge by now must be "manga" = Comics from Japan, des bandes dessinées japonaises, stripverhalen uit Japan.

    The same goes for "Comics" in French to make clear they are from America.

    In the end they all stay Comics, des bande dessinée, stripverhalen...

  16. #36
    Genava's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: The celts

    Hi guys,
    I have some questions.
    I would like to know the sources used for the creation of these units:




    Mainly on the scale armours and the two-handed sword.
    Thanks
    Last edited by Genava; April 13, 2009 at 04:46 PM.

  17. #37
    knight of virtue and valor's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: The celts

    the whole scale armor for barbarians always surprised me....
    "WE WILL SMITE THE INVADERS FROM OUR SKIES! Though they sweep over our lands like the sands of winter, never again will we bow before them; never again endure their oppression; never again endure their tyranny. We will strike without warning and without mercy, fighting as one hand, one heart, one soul. We will shatter their dreams and haunt their nightmares, drenching our ancestors' graves with their blood. And as our last breath tears at their lungs; as we rise again from the ruins of our cities...they will know: Helghan belongs to the Helghast." -Scholar Visari

  18. #38
    MarcusAureliusAntoninus's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: The celts

    The second unit will most likely not make it into EBII. The third has already been pulled from EB1. The creators of both 2 & 3 aren't around anymore and nobody can check their sources.

  19. #39
    dutch musketeer's Avatar Libertus
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    Default Re: The celts

    Quote Originally Posted by Genava View Post
    Me too, I will play a gallic faction.
    same here
    'I have never made but one prayer to God, a very short one: "Oh Lord, make my enemies ridiculous." And God granted it.' -Voltaire

    Supporter of Toontotalwars : Continental,British,Hessian,Spanish & French Armies All-in-One Mod Packs: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=244468
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  20. #40

    Default Re: The celts

    Quote Originally Posted by MarcusAureliusAntoninus View Post
    The second unit will most likely not make it into EBII. The third has already been pulled from EB1. The creators of both 2 & 3 aren't around anymore and nobody can check their sources.
    Good news, I never liked the two-handed sword guy.

    Will we have two-handed axemen?

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