Artillery firepower differences?

[Yokozuna]

Hi guys. I just want to know whats the difference (not in lenght but in power )between similar artillery cannons. Lets say 12,18,24 lber. The bigger the projectile the bigger boom it will provide. But in the game the stats are showing "firepower". I dont think there is an unit that will receive a hit and stay alive even from the smallest cannon. So firepower must be corresponding to the area of effect i guess. If it is how can these be compared - the 24lber has double area of effect or it is some percentage bigger that the one of the 12lber. So please help me measure the pe..ses of the artillery.

[Jaketh]

i gotta 64lber cannon, 4x bigger then the next biggest

[MyKingforahorse]

Cannons in this age were measured by the weight of the projectile to which was being fired. Specifically the weight of a single solid iron shot fired by that bore of cannon.

Thats not to say that a 24lb couldn't fire something else, but its measurement was done with the intent of being able to fire that single iron round.

It really wasn't until well into the 1700's that you started to see a standardization of actual measurements in the bore and weights of shots. I think it was France who pressed the standardization of their artillery with 8 and 12 pound cannons. 12 pounds for instance have something of a 4.6 inch bore (someone correct me if Im wrong)

In terms of relative gameplay, well you don't see much difference in the land artiliery (something Im hoping Darth or the devs address) . Cannister spreads are also not represented in terms of land battle gameplay either. The 12lb cannons seem to send the same amount of shrap as a 24lb which is wholly inaccurate.

In the Naval portion of the game however it seems its represented correctly for the solid shots. One can definately see this with the carronade frigates, who carried very short barrel huge pound cannons. Think mortars send on end.

The ranges need to be fix IMHO. Mortars shortend, 12lbs extended a little, 24lbs extended, howitzers extended and accuracy decreased, etc...

[Eastern Weasel]

First of all it shows how much damage to buildings will be done by cannonball, so more firepower - more damage. Also I found an annoying bug there, if you shoot your 6lb horse artillery cannon at a building, you will be doing like 2-4% of damage (also depends on type of building I think) but if you use shrapnel shot, 6lb will proably keep up, or even outdamage 12lb cannons firing cannonballs at same target. Also puckle guns are able to bring walls down comparatively fast, which doesnt make any sense.

As for antipersonal effect - larger calibre supposedly will cause larger area of effect.

[MyKingforahorse]

First of all it shows how much damage to buildings will be done by cannonball, so more firepower - more damage. Also I found an annoying bug there, if you shoot your 6lb horse artillery cannon at a building, you will be doing like 2-4% of damage (also depends on type of building I think) but if you use shrapnel shot, 6lb will proably keep up, or even outdamage 12lb cannons firing cannonballs at same target. Also puckle guns are able to bring walls down comparatively fast, which doesnt make any sense.

As for antipersonal effect - larger calibre supposedly will cause larger area of effect.

Haven't tested it on walls or buildings.. interesting find Weasel.

I can confirm that there is literally NO difference in effect when using any shot with any cannon. Or rather if there is a difference, the effect is so small as to not make note of.

Which is rather sad IMHO... if anything I'd like to see the round shots of a 24lb go longer than a 12lb before coming to rest.

[Frederf]

A 24lb cannon ball has more 2x as much weight as a 12pound cannon ball but only 1.6x the surface area. You'd think that this would make a bigger ball stick into the ground more and actually travel less.

[coman]

I want to stake my own view on the game, the scale of maps and range of powder weapons.

They can't be changed, or you ruin the capability to maneuver a full stack and a proper army effectively on these maps.

You can't wheel multiple divisions around, you can't have multiple points of contact. I tried Darth's changes and was basically giving everyone the evil eye and watching them fall over.

You want brutal firearm combat. Get closer. It's period authentic.

[schoenkoenig]

I think the main difference would be the greater range of larger calibre cannon. Also, any defensive works would be more readily destroyed by larger calibre shells.

There really isn't an operatively larger area of effect between a 6lb shell and a 24lb shell since neither would explode.

[coman]

The mass of the larger shot propelled at the same velocity would result in much more energy being available for penetration of penetrable / frangible / destructible material.

It would displace more earth. It would cause more blunt force impact. A smaller shot fired at higher velocity was favorable in most cases. Until you get into situations where heavier cannon were used and really did quite little, other than smash a few walls and terrify citizens and soldiers alike.

The amount and quality of powder, the material used and the manner in which the artillery piece was forged... All play a part in this. The really poor quality of 18th century powder revealed that not only was the individual piece unwieldy, but the mass amount of powder required was not only a severely expensive proposition but highly hazardous.

The low energy production from period powder with the inconstant and comparatively poor quality of forging really meant that larger pieces would produce significantly less comparative velocity at range.

The solution to discharging a round shot at range was to lengthen the barrel, use finer material and technique and produce a long 12 pound gun. Not as many would have you believe, simply by making a bigger cannon.

These finer cast and forged pieces were almost entirely consumed by the Navies of the world and would be seen as a waste on an artillery carriage until the 19th century, just before the introduction of a rifled and breech loading piece.

So I would expect that a larger bore piece would invariably end up with shorter accurate range, not longer. The only benefit of going to a larger shot is, of course, hitting harder with more at relatively speaking the same range.

There are two practical solutions to "big shot, short range, go smash" that developed before the breech loading rifled-barrel pieces of today; carronades and mortars. A carronade makes no pretense of range and propels a gigantic mass of shot of whatever type to very short ranges. A mortar only requires the velocity to put a round shot or shell UP. Using gravity to bring it back down.

Since we're speaking of direct fire weapons, anyone who wants more damage, longe range and accuracy on a large piece really should be making a WW1 mod.

If there was any good to come out of this blabbering of mine on the topic it would be:

1. Faster reload for smallest cannon
2. Slower reload for larger cannon
3. Higher accuracy and lesser weapon setup and pointing (training) time for smaller cannon
4. Lower accuracy and greater weapon setup and pointing (training) time for larger cannon

Currently it seems that all 6, 12 and 24 pound cannons share all factors but how much damage they do to a wall and how wide an area they have an effect on for various shots.

[Yokozuna]

Ok it seems that arti should be fixed, through patches or mods, so we can get to see and feel the difference between for example the 12lber and 64lber guns, and not wonder if there is any actually. Puckle guns obviously need fixing too - i dont see how it can destroy several metres thick wall even with thousands oh shots. Man, what doesnt have to be fixed in this game?

[Hellman109]

a 24lb round would go through allot more in a building though.

[notger]

Very good point, coman.

I would like to add something, concerning the skipping of the balls off the ground.

To a cannonball, the ground is like a fluid and like a flat stone can bounce off, but only, if the relation between weight of the projectile and the "tension" of the ground would not be too low (and, of course, if the angle of attack would not be too high).

That is why a shot will not bounce in swamps, snow and rivers (lacking superficial tension) and also means that a heavier shot will be more likely to get stuck and not do that lovely bouncing.

On the other hand, the spray of dirt and stones could hurt some soldiers standing nearby. I don't know about that, but for now, I assume that this would not do too much damage, apart from morale damage.

[nepereta]

Do the small horse drawn ones work well? I note the teams have higher accuracy stats. The mobility is nice. Although the 3lbs you can find in british 'small military settlements' seem a little bit small.

I remember from m2tw there was some cannon that excelled at sniping infantry and others designed to hit the proverbial side of a barn with something very large.

[coman]

I frankly haven't done much testing with the lighter pieces. My stop watch timings on them show they have the same reload rates and limber/handling properties. However, historically, smaller and lighter pieces were favored by most Armies. Taking 30 horses on the field to drag a heavy cannon around doesn't help you in an ever increasingly mobile military.

Look at Gustavus Adolphus' reform of the Swedish Army. The move in the Thirty Years War to more mobile artillery (Meaning they can PUSH it around on dry ground). As metal technologies and techniques improved in the following decades, 6 and 12 pounder became more "standard". We're literally talking about a piece weighing two tons being reduced to half that without carriage.

For horse and light artillery, the 6 pounder became the standard. As the caisson technology improved there were units that could ride right up to the enemy, unlimber, load and fire and keep sustained fire on the enemy. Try pushing a 30 pound cannon into position in the enemy presence and doing the same thing.

[coman]

Do the small horse drawn ones work well? I note the teams have higher accuracy stats. The mobility is nice. Although the 3lbs you can find in british 'small military settlements' seem a little bit small.

I remember from m2tw there was some cannon that excelled at sniping infantry and others designed to hit the proverbial side of a barn with something very large.

Artillery is artillery. Horse artillery is simply amazing. I've ridden them up into some interesting places with a screen of dragoons and horse and just decimated enemies. The sweet spot is putting them to work when the enemy is at 50-60% range when they are most accurate and at high velocity.

One hit from a 6 pound last night took out 22 of 45 enemy horse. Just hit SMACK in the middle of them and carved it's way through the group.

[eatme]

Artillery is artillery. Horse artillery is simply amazing. I've ridden them up into some interesting places with a screen of dragoons and horse and just decimated enemies. The sweet spot is putting them to work when the enemy is at 50-60% range when they are most accurate and at high velocity.

One hit from a 6 pound last night took out 22 of 45 enemy horse. Just hit SMACK in the middle of them and carved it's way through the group.

Sounds like a lucky shot with shrap ? I saw this with advanced artillery like pucks but not the light fields.

[coman]

Sounds like a lucky shot with shrap ? I saw this with advanced artillery like pucks but not the light fields.

I've never advanced that far in the tech tree. I've been doing all my campaigns in various ways to test AI and economy in preparation for modding. I'm saving all the late game military tech for when I -stop- mod research and actually enjoy a game.

Right now it's infinite campaign ideas. Need to know the boundaries and play to be able to observe impact of changes.

As to the artillery hit, no. Was a 6 pound horse round shot. Manually fired. It hit in the front, bounced and bowled men and horse over.

[Monglor]

If you can get an angle on your shot roundboys are better than shrapnel. A pellet of shrapnel seems to get stopped, as it should do, by a human target. A cannonball doesn't. So if you get a shot to go down the line side to side or better yet corner to corner on an enemy formation then you'll do a lot better than firing straight at the enemy.