Why is it ok to reverse-engineer ETW but not M2TW?

[SigniferOne]

We were told long ago, with stern administrative authority, that reverse-engineering or hex-editing binary M2TW files was a big no no, of substantial proportions. So how is it that a modding industry in ETW has grown up around just that??

[Chaoticfist]

I would guess partly CA realized there is really nothing they can do to stop people from hex editing. All they would do would be to drive the community underground and nobody would by the games.

When you looks at the terrible bugs that should have be caught long before this game was released then if CA starts complaining about people hex editing, i am going to be really pissed.

Before they do anything else they had better fix this bloody game.

[SigniferOne]

I would guess partly CA realized there is really nothing they can do to stop people from hex editing. All they would do would be to drive the community underground and nobody would by the games.

Alright fine, then what if we hex-edit M2TW binary files? I too would like to edit a bunch of things that haven't been opened through text files.

[Tacgnol]

I would guess partly CA realized there is really nothing they can do to stop people from hex editing. All they would do would be to drive the community underground and nobody would by the games.

if you think that more than 10% of ppl that buy this game will find the official forums never mind the ones here you need your medication adjusted

[GeorgiaPeanuts]

dunno, but many games without people reverse-engineering formats would never have had modding much at all. ie Sims 1 and Sims 2, where they pretty much figured how to mod of the basis of reverse-engineer of the formats used. Dunno why it would be hated here anyways....

[pdanders]

You can hex-edit anything you want... no one is stopping you.. have at it...

in fact they can't even stop you from distributing a patch that does the hex-editing for another people (distributing the binaries themselves could be an issue.. but there's easy ways around that.. a patch that just introduces your changes for example)


Did this actually stop anyone? I figured people have been hex-editing all this stuff all along.. who cares what CA wants.. I can do whatever I want to the software on my PC..

[WeardLan]

I think you'll find the same is true of E:TW

It's the license that prevents you reverse engineering, and it's all about Copyright/DRM and applies depending upon the law in your jurisdiction. Stricter jurisdictions gave that clause in the license so they can slap you with a DMCA suit which forbids you from "circumventing" (ever heard of DVD Jon?, he may even be the reason why the reverse engineering clause is there, they still failed to get 'im!!)

As far as hex editing pack files goes, CA said they'd release mod tools.
They didn't. The modders found the files. Found they weren't XML
played with some numbers. boom or mod or probably both.
Wotchagunnado?

It's legally a grey area. Technically no one can stop you digging around inside your HiFi/Phone/MP3 player with a screwdriver/soldering iron.

Ditto technically no one can stop you digging around with a hex editor pointed at your disk drive.

It's what happens after that where the problems start. e.g
if you took the unit_stats db, copied it, and changed one unit "to your liking" and started distributing the whole thing as a mod, you'd technically be in breach of copyright.
(the technically correct way of doing as I understand it to create a new unit that overrides the old).

On the other hand creating your own unit_stats_db from the ground up to totally replace vanilla, even if you "just happened" to create it so that all the unit details were identical to vanilla, would not be a breach of copyright. At least in my country it's not; where you are it might be... IANA Lawyer.

In the latter it'd be best if you have plenty of records of your development process though so you can at least demonstrate why/how you came up with *exactly* the same thing as someone else.


Late_thought (again many questions about whether it would stand up in court), as CA have stated that modders don't need to do anything to the vanilla
pack files, it would seem probable that you'll find reverse engineering the pack files also CA/Steam thinks "illegal".

Why? Read the big red announcement about Special Units.

[Flavius Silvanus]

CA and Sega promoted the mod community in the manual of MTW2.

I think they even see the mods as a selling point.

[Nordmann]

As far as I'm concerned, mods are generally the selling point for me, if CA killed the mod community I doubt I'd buy another Total War product.

[the_mango55]

If you venture over to the mod section, you'll see CA reps being very supportive of the editing that has been done so far, even giving instructions about how to get mods to work without modifying your core files.

[SigniferOne]

If you venture over to the mod section, you'll see CA reps being very supportive of the editing that has been done so far, even giving instructions about how to get mods to work without modifying your core files.

That's right. Does this mean we can edit M2TW binaries?

[pdanders]

That's right. Does this mean we can edit M2TW binaries?

YES.. YOU DONT NEED PERMISSION...

[keith moons liver]

That's right. Does this mean we can edit M2TW binaries?

The police are already on their way to your house.

[Spiff]

That's right. Does this mean we can edit M2TW binaries?

Well i mean, theyre different games, different pieces of work. If they want to let you do something with one and not with another then thats up to them. It may seem a little inconsistent but as far as we know they may well have good reason for the different policies.

[upsettingshorts]

What genuinely surprises me is that LucasArts hasn't stomped all over any mention of a Star Wars mod. Or the Tolkeins haven't sent Third Age Total War a cease and desist. These guys fiercely guard their intellectual property.

And unlike CA, they have something to lose, especially if Third Age Total War is a better game than War of the Ring or SWTW is better than Star Wars Rebellion (I know that's an outdated example, but I loved that game).

[MyKingforahorse]

What genuinely surprises me is that LucasArts hasn't stomped all over any mention of a Star Wars mod. Or the Tolkeins haven't sent Third Age Total War a cease and desist. These guys fiercely guard their intellectual property.

And unlike CA, they have something to lose, especially if Third Age Total War is a better game than War of the Ring or SWTW is better than Star Wars Rebellion (I know that's an outdated example, but I loved that game).

Its a grey area.

A childhood friends I grew up landed themselves in the entertainment industry and the general rule of thumb is "Positive publicity is encouraged unless it might encroach on a money maker"

[pdanders]

Its a grey area.

A childhood friends I grew up landed themselves in the entertainment industry and the general rule of thumb is "Positive publicity is encouraged unless it might encroach on a money maker"

How is it a grey area? It's perfectly legal.. as long as you aren't redistributing copyrighted material you can do whatever you want.

Again.. you can patch any file on a game however you want... esp if you just distribute the patch with your changes and none of the orginal product you are modifying

[upsettingshorts]

How is it a grey area? It's perfectly legal.. as long as you aren't redistributing copyrighted material you can do whatever you want.

Again.. you can patch any file on a game however you want... esp if you just distribute the patch with your changes and none of the orginal product you are modifying

He's responding to what I was talking about, which is different. Just by using the name "Star Wars" for instance it would technically be an infringement of copyright because it's Lucas' intellectual property and therefore exclusively his to use. But LucasArts lawyers could choose not to enforce it.

[Willowmound]

What genuinely surprises me is that LucasArts hasn't stomped all over any mention of a Star Wars mod. [...] These guys fiercely guard their intellectual property.

George Lucas is well known for allowing any and all Star Wars fan-made product as long as the guys making it don't make money from it.

Google "Star Wars fan film".

[EdwardL]

What genuinely surprises me is that LucasArts hasn't stomped all over any mention of a Star Wars mod. Or the Tolkeins haven't sent Third Age Total War a cease and desist. These guys fiercely guard their intellectual property.

And unlike CA, they have something to lose, especially if Third Age Total War is a better game than War of the Ring or SWTW is better than Star Wars Rebellion (I know that's an outdated example, but I loved that game).

They'll turn a blind eye until folks start trying to collect a fee for mods.