Riflemen v Greenjackets

[Dirty Jesus]

Hi. 1st post on the forums. Been a big TW fan since Shogun (I don't know how its taken me so long to find you ) Anyway....

Can someone explain to me why Greenjackets are much cheaper than Riflemen for the Brits, when all their stats (if the unit cards are to be believed) show that they are superior troops.

If the stats are accurate, you'd have to be stupid to include Riflemen in any late British build

[Metalhead1986]

Well that's because riflemen are twice numerous than green jackets and btw line infantry is better into hand to hand combat than green jackets

[Dirty Jesus]

Hmmm, ok.

Not sure if I'm missing something here but as far as I can see (from unit stats on SP battle setup and battle intself) Ferguson Riflemen and Greenjackets both have 60 men per unit (large scale).

Their stats for marksmanship are identical but GJ have the added bonus of having a higher defence (12 v 8) and a higher charge bonus (7 v 4), due I guess, to having socket bayonets.

FR costing 750 and GJ 580, I really can't see a reason for using FR. Unless I am indeed missing something.

And btw, I fully appreciate the difference between line inf and light inf thanks

[Bisbjerg]

Hmmm, ok.

Not sure if I'm missing something here but as far as I can see (from unit stats on SP battle setup and battle intself) Ferguson Riflemen and Greenjackets both have 60 men per unit (large scale).

Their stats for marksmanship are identical but GJ have the added bonus of having a higher defence (12 v 8) and a higher charge bonus (7 v 4), due I guess, to having socket bayonets.

FR costing 750 and GJ 580, I really can't see a reason for using FR. Unless I am indeed missing something.

And btw, I fully appreciate the difference between line inf and light inf thanks

Create a singleplayer game and let them shoot at each other
Btw. The Ferguson Riflemen has breechloader Rifles which makes them reloade faster.

[Dirty Jesus]

I think rate of fire might be the key difference here. Their reload skill may be equal but thats a pretty useless stat imo as it doesn't equate to actual relaod time or rate of fire unless you're comparing units with the exact same weapons.

I'm gonna do a bit of testing...

[agustin1]

i think ferguson's r men run out of ammo far quicker than green jackets, however freguson's may have higher moral and reload times...

[Bratalix]

they really should release detailed information on all the units tbh. Its annoying that we have to guess why some units costs more than others and so on!

[The_Dude]

they really should release detailed information on all the units tbh. Its annoying that we have to guess why some units costs more than others and so on!

its called unit stats and its available via right click

[Arej]

its called unit stats and its available via right click

Unit stats don't tell even half of the story. The stats do not explain why Ferguson's cost more than GJ, for example.

[Mechstra]

Significantly faster. I think they shoot about once every 10 seconds, though I haven't tested it.

[Legionary Titus Pullo]

the green jackets used the Baker Rifled musket, along with their 24" sword bayonet. but this was still a muzzle loader but with a rifled barrel which meant that although it was far more accurate over much longer distances than a smoothbore musket it did take longer to load because of the rifelling in the barrel.(which made it harder to ram home the charge)

The Baker Rifle with sword bayonet.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Standard issue. British Land Pattern Musket (Brown Bess)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

The Furguson rifle

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

All 3 side by side (size comparison)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

now you can understand why the bayonets were so much bigger on the rifles

where as the furguson rifle was a breach loader.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

which made it much easier and quicker to load, so the advantage of the Furguson would be in the speed of loading and the rate of fire.
obviously these troops would be more expensive to equip and to retrain.

[Dirty Jesus]

Great post Titus, very educational (how do I give you rep?).

A few quick tests confirms all this, GJ reload considerably slower. Putting 2 chevrons on them brings them up to the cost of the FR and even then the difference is pretty major. They won't do anywhere near the amount of damage FR will by skirmishing. The are more resilient though, so I guess they could act as a makeshift fixing line later in the battle ( I won't be rushing to try this though).

[Legionary Titus Pullo]

the green jackets were not a regular unit, recruited and trained together as most other regiments were.

the website for the royal green jackets has some nice info on the formation of the regiment
link : http://www.egframes.co.uk/CDRB.htm

"By the end of the eighteenth century several European armies included infantry specialised in the rolls of skirmishing and reconnaissance and the British followed the formation of the 5th Battalion of the 60th Royal Americans with the ceation in 1800 of an Experimental Corps of Riflemen, its members hand-picked from other regiments, dressed in green and armed with the Baker rifle. Within four months of its first parade the new unit led an assault landing at Ferrol and two months later it ceased to be `experimental` and was gazetted under the new title of The Rifle Corps. Its first Colonel, Coote Manningham, was one of a handful of officers whose thinking shaped the Light Infantry of the Army, while William Stuart as Commanding Officer was ideally suited to putting theory into practice, as well as being an original thinker in his own right."

[MrOsterman]

. Within four months of its first parade the new unit led an assault landing at Ferrol and two months later it ceased to be `experimental` and was gazetted under the new title of The Rifle Corps. Its first Colonel, Coote Manningham, was one of a handful of officers whose thinking shaped the Light Infantry of the Army, while William Stuart as Commanding Officer was ideally suited to putting theory into practice, as well as being an original thinker in his own right."

The challenge with every technical advancement was to undrestand how to do just that, put the theory into practice. And for us playing a game it was very different than asking officers of real men to take those kinds of learning risks with men in war.

We might try three or four deployments of Fergusson's Rifles before we find one that works for us, for our army and for our usual composition. An 18th Cen General usually had one, tops two, chances to get it right before the rifle was pulled out or they were too slaughtered to fight effectively.

There is a distinct challenge in learning each kind of unit, where they are best used and how best to deploy them. A good officer can win any battle with any composition provided he knows how to deploy the troops under his command.

Mr. O

[Metalhead1986]

oh my bad, I thought you were talking about line infantry ahah
fergusson's rifle have best reload skills and thus can shot faster

[AustrianGeneral]

Doesnt have Windbusch Jagers the best Reload skill or fire rating if you compare light Rifles ? Their airguns are impressive fast.

[Legionary Titus Pullo]

well i have played several battles between Greenjackets (GJ) and Furgusons rifles(FR) and i have had mixed results. all played with AI set as Hard.

first i played as 3 units of FR. against 3 units or GJ the AI attacked 1 unit at a time and were slaughterd = inconclusive.
next i played as 1 unit of FR Versus 1 unit of GJ . dicisive win.
next i played as GJ with 2 exp Versus 1 unit of FR. dicisive win.
then i played as FR Versus GJ with 9 exp . now this was weird even with all that experience i was killing them but then they charged me and routed me after killing my officer. i just wasnt expecting that.

but as the FR reload so much faster they will be my skirmishers of choice from now on.

one thing that i was miffed at is the weopon of the green jackets it looks like a normal musket rather than the baker rifle that they were known for, and the bayonet is totally wrong too.

[theis]

well i have played several battles between Greenjackets (GJ) and Furgusons rifles(FR) and i have had mixed results. all played with AI set as Hard.

first i played as 3 units of FR. against 3 units or GJ the AI attacked 1 unit at a time and were slaughterd = inconclusive.
next i played as 1 unit of FR Versus 1 unit of GJ . dicisive win.
next i played as GJ with 2 exp Versus 1 unit of FR. dicisive win.
then i played as FR Versus GJ with 9 exp . now this was weird even with all that experience i was killing them but then they charged me and routed me after killing my officer. i just wasnt expecting that.

but as the FR reload so much faster they will be my skirmishers of choice from now on.

one thing that i was miffed at is the weopon of the green jackets it looks like a normal musket rather than the baker rifle that they were known for, and the bayonet is totally wrong too.

the green jackets clearly had sharpe as their captain

[Legionary Titus Pullo]

ok my bad - the baker rifle wasnt produced for the green jackets till 1800 - 1801 and the 95th rifles wasnt formed till 1801 the green jackets before that were just light troops with better training.

[guerra]

Ferguson Rifles fire approximately two to three times faster.

The reload skill is the same, however. But the rate of fire is massively higher on the Ferguson Rifles.