Lets equip the levy clubmen with 'throwing clubs', shall we?

[Mulattothrasher]

This is factual, mentioned by one of the greatest Celtic historian-archaeologists there is: Barry Cunliffe.

In his must have book, The Ancient Celts, at the very bottom of p.93 it says:

The weapon carried by the warrior were a sword, usually fastened on the right side, and a spear. Some used bows and arrows, slings, or throwing clubs

Later the paragraph say all these items are attested in the archaeological record, too.

Now, I'm a bit excited because, in most of the RTW community , 'Celtic traditionalist' rule the roost in Celtic units; folks are afraid to give the Celts anything else but a sword, spear, and Montefortino helmet. Heck, RS2 is the first mod to actual have the Celts with the 'wiggly' spearheads and spear tips with the 'notched' look. I saw we make RTW history again and add this weapon. I recall Signifier One saying the Celts did not even used clubs as hand weapons! Well, I knew of the clubs were used obviously, and answered his accusation with the Gaelic, Welsh, and Cornish words for club/cudgel as proof, but I could not recall where I saw throwing clubs, but alas, that is history.

Historically, I believe this will help rewrite a bit of what people think the Celts fought with, and, open up new horizons on thinking outside the box. Going by classical sources alone will not give you the whole picture as I've always maintained.

We give this unit throwing clubs so they function as levy/peasant skirmish infantry. I cannot locate what these clubs look like however, and they were uncommon from what I would guess. Plus, being organic (wood), they would not be found in abundance as they'd have rotted away a millennium ago. I imagine only 2-3 could be carried at any one time.

What do y'all think?

[swhunter]

I would say no, We need a good club warrior, as those who couldn't afford swords.
And as you said, "how many could he carry"?
And what damage could be done if an enemy had a shield? Not much i would say.
They would probably gather them later to burn their bodies after they died.

[Mulattothrasher]

Hmm, a Celtic traditionalist among us?

The levy clubmen would have their normal clubs AND throwing clubs, thus they'd become a light infantry AND a skirmish unit. I should have clarified.

[rory o'kane]

wouldn't thrown clubs be.... well, a bit crappy against anyone with any kind of decent shield?

[Mulattothrasher]

Same argument could be said for slingers too...shields are shields, thats why typically you do not attack a shielded unit from the front and expect anything major even if you are a slinger, archer, or javelin guy.

[rory o'kane]

difference being that slingshots travel fast enough that their speed makes up for their lack of weight - those three types of missile you mentioned could conceivable puncture a good shield. they only hit a small surface area, resulting in more damage to that small area (basic physics here - Force = mass x acceleration (or in this case, the deceleration of the shot as it hits the shield in meters per second per second (not a typo)). divide that over the area of the shot, and you get a rating in N/m2 (Newtons per square meter (i.e. in Pascals). Javelins have enough weight but less speed, but are sharper, so that though their force of impact may be similar, it's concentrated on a smaller area (due to the fact that the point is sharp), and consequently it will cause greater pressure (in Pascals) on the target. Arrows - same concept, but sort of a halfway house - not as fast as slingshot, but heavier (faster than javelins, but lighter), but still sharp, meaning greater force per unit of area therefore more likely to penetrate a shield. a club thrown by a human hand may be heavier than an arrow, but the surface area of impact is likely to be high, and consequently the force of the impact spread over a greater surface area - consequently, the damage to the shield and its owner is likely to be minimal, whereas if you're hit by a shower of arrows from Parthian composite bows or Roman pila, you're gonna be bricking it even if you do have a good solid theuros covering most of your body...

[pseudocaesar]

The way he passingly mentions it makes it look as though this was a very low end last resort type use, and cannot be justified wasting a whole unit with.

[Mulattothrasher]

Rory, I get your point, but again, attacking shielded units from the front seldom deals many casualties, especially if you are well armored. Chainmail is effective against sharper objects, but bludgeoning weapons (clubs, hammers, aaxes) will still deal some pain out.

Mostly all ranged combat was second rate and low end, at least to Celts. Ranged combat wasn't 'heroic enough', thus the poorer folks and younger fighters typically were found performing the ranged combat, while the experienced warriors closed in for the melee

We are not 'wasting' a unit, just adding throwing clubs to the levy clubmen giving them a ranged weapon. Keep in mind that Celt archers are a low end last resort unit as well as Vercingetorix shows. Slingers and archers have pretty much zero melee abilities, but these guys have a shield and club already, plus the potential to be able to overcome unarmored light infantry with small or no shields.This simply adds another dimension to fighting with them, and the player needs some thought about deploying them and who to target, which is the same method used with archers, slingers, and other ranged units.

[rory o'kane]

i agree.

[rory o'kane]

how would you throw them? wouldn't they spin through the air? their effective range would probably be quite piddly...

[dvk901]

Well, the 'Levy Clubman' we have could be 'converted' into such a unit I imagine....since Tone can make RTW do most anything he wishes. But it would involve a new model for it, a new weapon type, and perhaps a new animation.

[Mulattothrasher]

Throwing axe animation should work fine. Both axe and club would have soem kind of handle/grip to them.

If its a tech problem that cannot make this so, thats fine , but I think we can really open up some eyes out there by including this weapon, even if it can only take out other levy/skirmisher unit and not a cataphracts.

[cherryfunk]

It's possible that you could use the throwing axe animation, that might work.

[swhunter]

It's possible that you could use the throwing axe animation, that might work.

This would be better still, it would only distract the enemy and maybe go past the shield into the target.
Then the club would provide the pounds per square inch impacts,
When attacking.

[rory o'kane]

i still doubt their real effectiveness, especially against well armoured troops - i mean, if you're wearing lorica segmentata, that is DESIGNED to disperse the shock of an impact on the armour so the body takes less damage. consequently, even if you're hit in the rear with these clubs, the impact will be minimal if you're well armoured.

[cherryfunk]

I agree they wouldn't be very effective against armored troops, but if it's easy to add in it would be kinda cool. Only thing is that they should have very a limited number of clubs, none of this infinite projectile nonsense like with the throwing axe unit from BI...

[dvk901]

I don't think 'effectiveness' is a valid arguement. The weapon, regardless of the 'real world' would have just as much effect as a thrown axe, a javelin, an arrow, or a stone. So what if 80% of them hit the shield..maybe 20% don't and kill the unit. I mean, it's just like any other RTW 'weapon'.....and really, when you think of it, it could be a bit of shock as a player to face what you 'think' is just a bunch of grunt levy clubman, and all of sudden you're being pummeled by a bunch of clubs. I think it would cool....until I killed them all.

But it will all depend on Tone's willingness to do this with the clubman.

[tone]

Let's do it then.
Just a question creating a new missile from the club and giving the unit the right skeleton (animation).

[cherryfunk]

I believe the proper response is:




Do we have any images of what these clubs looked like?

[Brusilov]

I look forward to seeing these units on the battlefield!

I hope the AI doesn't recruit a whole army of them, though.