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Thread: Prison System - Fritzl prison has gym, choir and tennis classes

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  1. #1
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    Default Prison System - Fritzl prison has gym, choir and tennis classes

    Source - The Times

    Fritzl, 73, who was jailed last week for murder, rape, enslavement, coercion and incest after locking his daughter in his cellar for 24 years and fathering seven children by her, six of whom survived, is free under Austrian law to choose from three prisons that offer special sections for “psychologically abnormal” convicts.



    According to his lawyer, Rudolf Mayer, he will select Garsten, a former Benedictine convent about 30 minutes’ drive from the house in the provincial town of Amstetten, where he held his daughter Elisabeth prisoner from the age of 18 and sexually abused her an estimated 3,000 times.
    In Garsten he will be able to improve his English or study other foreign languages, as well as singing in the choir or training in a gym that is better-equipped than those of many hotels. As an inmate, he will be offered a wide variety of hobbies and entertainment, including tennis, darts and art classes.
    I'm sure most of you are aware of the story of Josef Fritzl. However, for me, his sentance raises questions over prison sentencing. Despite the fact that the prison he is being admitted to is one for the psychologically ill, here in Britain I also feel prisons are far too comfortable. Pool tables, televisions and playstations are standard and often, such as in the case of Frtizl, inmates are given the options to join the choir, study a language or particpate in other educational courses.

    I find this particulalry worrying. Prison, well is pretty self-explanatory. I would like to here the views of the board as to what conditions Fritlz should serve his prison sentence in. More importantly, how do the current prison conditions in your own country reflect that of your own opinion. I personally feel they are far too relaxed here in the UK. I am not advocating mindless extentions of punishment, rather the need for obvious lack of certain privileges. It is a difficult issue as there are of course moral implications as to the conditions inmates should be subjected to. Jack Straw promised in 2008 to crack down on "cushy prisons" but clearl he has not, as this article from the BBC explicates - "prisoners are too comfortable to escape."

    The Telegraph recently publish an article exposing the complete failure of the Britsish prison system. It reads that "the prison record in this country[UK] is, by most international standards, appalling." It goes on to reveal that:

    We lock up more people than our neighbours and we have very high levels of reoffending. Two thirds of all prisoners are re-convicted within two years and half are re-convicted within a staggering 12 months. This comes at enormous extra cost to the police and the courts – and of course to us, the victims of repeat offending. In financial terms, it amounts to at least £11 billion a year.
    Is this attributable to the lack of severity in our prisons? I believe it is.Your views on the matter, whatever country you reside.
    Last edited by Vince Noir; March 22, 2009 at 02:36 PM.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Prison System - Fritzl prison has gym, choir and tennis classes

    He is in a psychiatric institution.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Prison System - Fritzl prison has gym, choir and tennis classes

    Quote Originally Posted by Shyam View Post
    He is in a psychiatric institution.
    Numerous articles, such as the one given, explicate over and over that he is in a "prison". That of which he has three to choose of.

    The prison, set in woodland in the foothills of the Alps and considered one of the best in Austria, provides inmates with the light and fresh air that Fritzl’s victims were deprived of in their dank cellar.
    The institution described is a prison.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Prison System - Fritzl prison has gym, choir and tennis classes

    Quote Originally Posted by Vince Noir View Post
    Numerous articles, such as the one given, explicate over and over that he is in a "prison". That of which he has three to choose of.

    The institution described is a prison.
    On 19 March, he was sentenced to life imprisonment at a secure institution for mentally ill offenders.
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7371959.stm

    A compromise, then.

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    Erik's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Prison System - Fritzl prison has gym, choir and tennis classes

    I don't care how comfortable prisons are, because their purpose is not to make inmates uncomfortable.

    There are several reasons to send criminals to prison:
    - protect society: as long as they are locked up they are no longer a threat to society at large.
    - punishment by taking away criminals freedom for a given period. (note that this is the ONLY punishment sentenced by the court of law)
    - provide treatment (in the case of mentally ill criminals) or re-education (hopefully for the remaining inmates, although this is unfortunately not done enough).



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    Angered Roach's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: Prison System - Fritzl prison has gym, choir and tennis classes

    Modern prisons in the west are a complete joke. The idea that we should rehabilitate, not punish, is fundamentally flawed. Not everyone can be saved, nor is everyone worth saving. This sick is a perfect example of the latter. If he were in a prison of my design? I'd stick him in an oubliette and let him feed on dry rice and well water for the rest of his life. No lights. No sound to comfort him. No company save for the rats and cockroaches. Not even the comfort of a bucket to contain his waste, or straw to lay down upon. He would die, cold, alone, and locked up like his daughter, the guards only learning of his death when the stench of his decaying corpse overpowers the ever present odor of his stagnating feces.

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    Erik's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Prison System - Fritzl prison has gym, choir and tennis classes

    Quote Originally Posted by Vince Noir View Post
    We lock up more people than our neighbours and we have very high levels of reoffending. Two thirds of all prisoners are re-convicted within two years and half are re-convicted within a staggering 12 months. This comes at enormous extra cost to the police and the courts – and of course to us, the victims of repeat offending. In financial terms, it amounts to at least £11 billion a year.
    Is this attributable to the lack of severity in our prisons? I believe it is.Your views on the matter, whatever country you reside.
    I don't think so, because countries with "harsh" prisons don't have any better re-conviction rates than countries with "comfortable" prisons.
    Quite the contrary, in fact.

    Re-education and treatment are the only scientifically proven ways to reduce re-conviction.



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    Default Re: Prison System - Fritzl prison has gym, choir and tennis classes

    Quote Originally Posted by Shyam View Post
    agreed.


    Quote Originally Posted by Erik View Post
    I don't think so, because countries with "harsh" prisons don't have any better re-conviction rates than countries with "comfortable" prisons.
    Quite the contrary, in fact.

    Re-education and treatment are the only scientifically proven ways to reduce re-conviction.
    I'm all for educational programmes. But playstations, pool tables and laptops? There should be a sufficient lack of enjoyment to remind one of their crime, and just being a prison with a load of men doesnt not suffice, particulalry among who have committed utterly appalling crimes.

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    Erik's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Prison System - Fritzl prison has gym, choir and tennis classes

    Quote Originally Posted by Vince Noir View Post
    But playstations, pool tables and laptops? There should be a sufficient lack of enjoyment to remind one of their crime
    Why?

    When someone is sentenced to, say, "one year in prison" they aren't sentenced to boredom but just to being locked up for one year.
    That's their official punishment, nothing more.

    If the punishment isn't enough in your eyes, then you should call for a change in law.
    If prisons are allowed (or even expected) to come up with additional punishments on their own, then there will be very little left of your legal system.



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    Default Re: Prison System - Fritzl prison has gym, choir and tennis classes

    Quote Originally Posted by Erik View Post
    Why?
    Because I have been conditioned socially to believe that punishment is adaquate servitude for such crimes. This opens the door to repentance.

    If the punishment isn't enough in your eyes, then you should call for a change in law.
    I have no qualms with the law and prison sentencing. I have issues with conditions present in various prisons around the UK, seperate from legal doctrine.


    If prisons are allowed (or even expected) to come up with additional punishments on their own, then there will be very little left of your legal system.
    I would never advocate "additional punishments". Rather just a lack of certain comforts. Then you may ask, "what comforts, who decides such comforts?". I would say a judge decides and uses a rationale similar their sentencing.

    The other problem with the prison system here in the UK is also the length of service in prisons, that of which is attributed to overcrowding and poor beuacratic process.

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    Erik's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Prison System - Fritzl prison has gym, choir and tennis classes

    Quote Originally Posted by Vince Noir View Post
    I would never advocate "additional punishments". Rather just a lack of certain comforts. Then you may ask, "what comforts, who decides such comforts?". I would say a judge decides and uses a rationale similar their sentencing.
    When we agree: you need to change the law if you want to include reduced levels of comfort as part of the punishment.

    (assuming you don't mean to say that Judges should ignore the law or create their own).



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    Default Re: Prison System - Fritzl prison has gym, choir and tennis classes

    In Canada, a mid level security prison is this: One cell per person, a personal computer, a nice bed, a nice chair- tv. Looks like a Dorm from college. Approximately 35,000 dollars are spent on housing each person individually, more than the average income of non convicted Canadians. They live, on average, better lives. We should be locking them in cells with nothing. Give them a floor, bad food, and a bucket to put their wastes in. They are animals, so treat them as such.
    Quote Originally Posted by Erik View Post
    I don't think so, because countries with "harsh" prisons don't have any better re-conviction rates than countries with "comfortable" prisons.
    Quite the contrary, in fact.

    Re-education and treatment are the only scientifically proven ways to reduce re-conviction.
    How about you prove that statement, because Canada tries it and 2/3'ds of our criminals go right back within a year or two.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Prison System - Fritzl prison has gym, choir and tennis classes

    Quote Originally Posted by Scar Face View Post
    and a bucket to put their wastes in.
    That was done (and still goes on in older prisons) in Scotland. Prisoners and ex-prisoners took the Scottish Prison Service to court. It was ruled that slopping out (as it's called here) violates the human rights of the prisoner and they can (and have been) awarded compensation.

    To be honest, the reason prisons have such a poor record of preventing reoffending is because most criminals come from a background of crime. They commit crime, they go to prison (eventually), they meet new criminal associates in prison, they come back out, and they go back to the same social circles where crime is considered acceptable. Prison doesn't really stand much of a chance of preventing re-offending.
    Last edited by guinnessman; March 22, 2009 at 03:03 PM.

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    Default Re: Prison System - Fritzl prison has gym, choir and tennis classes

    Quote Originally Posted by Scar Face View Post
    They are animals, so treat them as such.
    So I guess you know the crimes everyone has committed to get into prison and of course all crimes are equal and breaking any law makes you an animal. That's some great logic there. Maybe we should apply cutting off hands for stealing and stoning for unfaithfulness as apparently you think by breaking any laws one gives up his human rights.

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    Rich86's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Prison System - Fritzl prison has gym, choir and tennis classes

    here in Britain I also feel prisons are far too comfortable.
    Firstly, a comfy cell is still nonetheless a cell. Secondly I think the reason they are given basic comforts is it makes them less likely to riot doesn't it? I mean, if you sit an inmate in front of a playstation all day he's going to be easier to manage than one who has nothing to do all day surely?

    inmates are given the options to join the choir, study a language or particpate in other educational courses.
    Good - these are harmless activities. In my opinion every human being should be allowed some leisuire time, and every human being should be allowed to better themselves through education (language lessons etc).

    The idea that we should rehabilitate, not punish, is fundamentally flawed. Not everyone can be saved, nor is everyone worth saving.
    True but some (perhaps most?) are. Do we punish all because the minority might not be able to be saved? How do we tell which ones can be saved and which ones cannot?

    I'd stick him in an oubliette and let him feed on dry rice and well water for the rest of his life. No lights. No sound to comfort him.
    Doesn't that make you as bad as him? I mean, fair enough you've not raping him...you're not going that far...but still...




    We need to ask ourselves what do we want prison to do? For me I want prison (in this order)

    i) Protect us from the 'bad' people - the dangerous people.
    ii) Help these people realise why what they did was wrong, and offer them a new life - turn them from (in an ideal world) vicious thugs (in some cases) into law abiding members of society who will contribute.
    iii) Punish.

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    Default Re: Prison System - Fritzl prison has gym, choir and tennis classes

    you know I thyink I know of a new use for gitmo
    according to exarch I am like
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Quote Originally Posted by Exarch View Post
    sure, the way fred phelps finds christianity too optimistic?

    Simple truths
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Did you know being born into wealth or marrying into wealth really shows you never did anything to earn it?
    btw having a sig telling people not to report you is hilarious.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Prison System - Fritzl prison has gym, choir and tennis classes

    In my opinion the idea behind a prison should always be rehabilitation. It's just the best thing to do for society. Of course monsters like Fritzl should be put in a prison for life, but that doesn't mean you can't show them what they did was evil. You can do that by educating them.

    Punishment is irrational. It's based on nothing more than hate. Not something you want to base the safety of a society on.


  18. #18
    babydoc's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: Prison System - Fritzl prison has gym, choir and tennis classes

    Oh my God.....
    Fritzl is old and need exersice, that is a good thing for him
    And being without a TV is just evil, would u like to be without a TV?

  19. #19

    Default Re: Prison System - Fritzl prison has gym, choir and tennis classes

    Quote Originally Posted by babydoc View Post
    Oh my God.....
    Fritzl is old and need exersice, that is a good thing for him
    And being without a TV is just evil, would u like to be without a TV?
    Apparently your post fails to make sense, would you care to explain?


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    babydoc's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: Prison System - Fritzl prison has gym, choir and tennis classes

    Quote Originally Posted by Spinoza View Post
    Apparently your post fails to make sense, would you care to explain?
    I mean that he has the same rights like everyone else eho is in prison and should have access to all that the prison has to offer in terms of exersice and TV/videogames/gym facilities

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