What are your fort defense tactics?

**upsettingshorts** · March 20, 2009, 04:56 PM

Ended up posting this in another thread and realized it could be a good way to start a discussion of how to defend star forts and other forts:

Originally Posted by tdpatriots12

Here's the stack for defending Star forts:

1 General
3 Mortars
12 Line Infantry
4 Light Infantry (something with good range, so if you are American and have Long Rifles, use these)
-You could probly do without the General, or mix in some Grenadiers instead of 12 line infantry, but I'd rather have pure manpower than nades to man the large walls. The cannons on the walls give the line infantry more than enough punch especially if you are using them actively. The problem with the 13th Line Infantry unit over General is where to put it. So I'd say a good alternate for a general is a unit of Grenadiers that you use to plug a breach in your defenses.

* Start with Line Infantry inside the fort, using their fortifications to create a secondary line of defense around the buildings and flag. Light Infantry go to the jutting-out portions of the Star Fort. Mortars inside the secondary defenses.

* When battle starts, move the Line infantry to 3-per-side of the four-sided fort. The enemy will eventually pick a spot to attack, but you can bend/move the defenses around more efficiently if they are distributed evenly along the walls. The AI isn't consistent in attacking any particular area so having max coverage is ideal.

* If the enemy assaults one of the jutting out sections where your light infantry is, withdraw them to one of your buildings - they are excellent at picking off the enemy on the walls as they come in without too much FF.

* If the enemy assaults the North, use the East and West garrison to reinforce them, but pull the Southern wall's garrison off the wall and bring them to the secondary fortification, facing North. If they shell the walls, withdraw your Northern wall garrison to the interior lines as well. Leave the East and West garrisons near the gap to shoot down into the breach.

I follow this formula pretty religiously in Star Forts (in regular Forts its generally the same except I put the light infantry on the corners) and it's usually a bloodbath for the enemy - especially since my interior lines usually have trenches and stakes. For those who complain that Star Forts require full stacks to defend, well, I think they should. Star Forts should be for key strategic areas and if the area isn't important enough to warrant a full stack it isn't important enough for a Star Fort either.

/realized this is semi-OT so Im gonna port it over to a new thread in Gameplay

Note there is a thread labelled "Star Forts" but that seems to be more about whether or not they are useful. This thread is for discussion about how to use fortifications (or city fortifications) not whether or not to actually bother.

**MyKingforahorse** · March 20, 2009, 06:42 PM

I like to utilize cannons in fort defense, when the enemy units are coming down from the walls or coming through a breach they are often at the whim and mercy of a well placed canister shot, single volley and bayonet charge.

I'll use a little Calvary outside the fort as well to try and get my opponent to leave troops to protect their arty. I may not actually attack with them, ever, but it keeps them on their toes having to multi task.

**Mr.Excitement** · March 20, 2009, 06:51 PM

depends on the terrain and what the other faction has imo.

**Monglor** · March 20, 2009, 09:00 PM

In a Star Fort I never have enough troops to man the walls, and I dislike tiring out my troops chasing around, so I play it all in the courtyard.

Ideally I want four or more line infantry units, plus the local hoopleheads. What I do then is stack up line infantry in the centre, with the local mobs in the buildings around.

As the enemy comes into the fort I do my best to focus as much fire on them as possible before the units can really group up. The men in the houses irritate the enemy without really inflicting serious casualties, and if you can hold the enemy in melee with one or two of your units of line infantry and move the other to put volley fire into the rest of them then you're in business.

I really don't like the ETW forts though, they are very poor force multipliers. The more troops I have the more I stack the inside, I only defend from the walls in small forts. In small forts, usually in America, I try to have four line infantry and two rangers or similar, stick the line troops on the walls and have the rangers in the courtyard. When the enemy gets up on the walls have the rangers shoot up from the ground at them, it'll really do damage while the line troops hold the enemy in melee.

Shooting from the walls with musket or cannon is really feeble in my opinion. Best way to do the damage is take advantage of the fact the enemy has to come to you over the walls as a big obstacle and get your troops ready to meet him with a good three rank block of line infantry. If you're on the wall you tend to get reduced firepower, then you have to fight hand to hand.

**Jaketh** · March 20, 2009, 09:32 PM

Site tight and shoot

**Gattamelata** · March 21, 2009, 12:53 PM

Originally Posted by Monglor

I really don't like the ETW forts though, they are very poor force multipliers.

Amen!

The single largest problem with them is that it's impossible to get infantry to use the fort's cannons properly. You will notice when besieging an AI-controlled fort that infantry fire the fort cannons at long range. They seem to have at least the same range as standard foot artillery. But when a player controls a fort, there are two problems. First, infantry only man the cannons when an enemy draws within range of their muskets. Second, once that has happened, the infantry tend to fire the cannons at the nearest targets, seriously limiting the impact of the cannons.

When defending star forts against the AI, the cardinal rule to remember is that enemy non-artillery units charge straight for the fort's flag. Once they reach the flag, they take some time to arrange themselves back into a formation, then they take a bit more time to revel in being at the flag, and only then do they spread out and start to attack other targets.

With that in mind, this is how I place my units when defending star forts:

Line infantry, militia, and other large ranged infantry units are arrayed in the courtyard. Depending on which direction the enemy come from, I arrange these units with overlapping fields of fire around the flag. This can become a real killing zone with 4 or more units of infantry pouring fire on the enemy as they run toward the flag, regroup at the flag, and take some time to admire the flag before doing anything threatening.

Fixed artillery and foot artillery: I place these in the courtyard, with covering fields of fire over the flag. Foot artillery can be redeployed so that they cover not only the flag, but the ramps that the enemy will use to get to it. Canister shot into three or four units at the flag can trigger a mass rout. Canister shot into a group running down a ramp can make them a non-factor and force that unit to rout.

Skirmishers, melee infantry, melee cavalry, ranged cavalry and horse artillery: I always put these units outside the walls. This seems risky but actually isn't, and it winds up being particularly effective. I use these units in the following ways:

a) I leave my skirmishers hidden and facing the walls that I think the AI will try to climb with their infantry. The enemy infantry run right past them, taking crippling fire the whole time. Units climbing walls are particularly vulnerable to this fire. The best part comes when enemy units are routing and climbing down the walls: my skirmishers are waiting for them, and butcher them on their slow, painful way down. It's immensely entertaining watching their corpses fall from the rope ladders to the base of the walls.

b) Melee infantry aren't as useful as skirmishers, but I use them the same way. They can be shockingly effective when charging into the rear of a unit that has just started climbing a wall. Starting to climb a wall leaves a unit very vulnerable: they seem to be unable to respond effectively to a melee attack. On several occasions I've charged 100-man Austrian line infantry with 100-man Ottoman musselim units. In a straight up melee battle, the musselims will always lose, but when they charge the rear of the line infantry after the line infantry have started climbing the walls, they win easily.

c) Melee cavalry are fairly versatile. They can be used in the same way as melee infantry, but they can also form a credible counter-artillery unit when deployed outside the walls. The AI often does leave infantry to screen their artillery, but that's another infantry unit that you don't have to worry about joining the initial charge.

d) Ranged cavalry are the ultimate in versatility. They can be used the in the same ways as skirmishers, melee infantry or melee cavalry. Their speed and range makes them ideal at maneuvering to the ideal point of maximum effectiveness.

e) Horse artillery: These units work wonders outside the walls. Enemy artillery focuses on breaching the defenses (unless you get too close with your artillery), so your horse artillery can be used as a mobile canister shot delivery mechanism. The enemy infantry mass up beautifully in sieges, and there is nothing more compelling than turning 80 line infantry into 18 line infantry because you sent two rounds of canister right down their line. It's also entertaining to shoot canister at routing infantry who are climbing down your walls, and at infantry who are clustered at the base of a wall waiting to climb up.

What's most effective, but also very rare, is when you're defending a fort that has a pre-existing breach in it. The enemy all run to this one breach, making it trivially easy to slaughter them like hogs. In this case you can easily create a ruthless gauntlet of infantry lining the path from the breach to the flag, and place your artillery at the end of that path just on the other side of the flag. Most units won't make it within range of the canister shot, but those that do will regret it.

**J. Fishman** · March 21, 2009, 01:20 PM

Originally Posted by Monglor

I really don't like the ETW forts though, they are very poor force multipliers.

As a rule, in TW, forts are rarely force MULTIPLIERS. They are force moderators. This means if you are defending as a vastly inferior force, they will increase your strength by reducing the number of enemies that can attack you...but if you are defending as a STRONG force, they will WEAKEN you by creating liabilities, depriving you of deployment space, and generally obstructing your line of battle. If they were force MULTIPLIERS, it would always be advantageous to fight with the benefit of a fort. However, this is simply not true. If you are defending a fort with 3 cavalry units and a peasant militia, the fort is great! If you have a fullstack field army, this is terrible and you will surely take a horrid beating in the defense. In previous Total Wars, even when defending a fort, you should always sally, but this option is no longer truly available in Empire, and the enemy will be upon you before you can sally.

**Ulysseslotro** · March 21, 2009, 03:44 PM

Would grenadiers be good here? I'm not sure but they have good melee, and they are small units so they can move places easier in a fort.

Maybe has some Grenadiers to defend any breaches. And then some Grenadiers just above the breach tossing down grenades

I'm pretty sure that would thin their ranks.

It is also easy to charge forces trying to climb walls, they like to spread out everywhere so have a few Light Dragoons maybe. They can fortify the buildings, position on the walls, or charge stray regiments outside the walls trying to climb up, or you can place them near the Grenadiers that are protecting the breaches while on their horses and fire over the heads of them.

And a Horse Artillary force comprised of 2 Dragoons, 2 Horse Artillary, 1 Cavalry would be nice to have running around and positioning for cannister shots.

**Gattamelata** · March 22, 2009, 10:30 PM

Originally Posted by Ulysseslotro

Would grenadiers be good here? I'm not sure but they have good melee, and they are small units so they can move places easier in a fort.

My problem with using grenadiers is that grenades are ineffective against moving targets. The locale for the grenade toss is chosen before the grenadiers throw their grenades. Between that moment and the grenades going off, there is the animation of the grenadier throwing, the grenade traveling to its destination, and then a significant delay before it detonates. In that time, a unit can easily run out of the blast radius of the grenades.

If there is a large stream of units moving through a breach, or if it's a large unit that is spread out, then tossing grenades down from above might work well. It might also work well when a unit is massing at the base of a wall while preparing to climb.

I've found that keeping the grenadiers right near the fort flag is nice, because assaulting AI units stop and wait for a while near the flag. There is usually enough time to get a lethal grenade toss in there. The trick is making sure the grenadiers don't throw until their target stops.

**J. Fishman** · March 21, 2009, 01:06 PM

I like to deploy my army outside the fort so that when the enemy attacks the IDF artillery in the fort, the rest of the army shows up outside and attacks the AI from behind in open field. For that matter, I have never run a serious fort-only defense in any edition of Total War: I always leave some guys in the fort, and take the rest of my army out the side and attack them from behind while they fight the walls. Against the AI, this will totally confuse him and often render his assault a miserable failure, if I sacrifice a damaged cavalry stack to kill the rammers or something, causing him to lose his siege gear and thus just mill around the walls being shot to death by archers and turrets.

Similar principles apply in Empire: Jam your cavalry into their infantry, causing them to become confused and forget what they are doing. Then run like you stole something. Repeat when they forget they were chasing you.

**coman** · March 21, 2009, 01:12 PM

You can read and see screenshots of my level 1 stockade fort defense tactics against a much larger, aggressive melee army.

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...94#post4728894