a 17,000 year old city...WHAT?!?

[Ramashan]

Paleolithic hunter and gatherer had stations that they were changing frequently. It was preferable for them to move over larger areas each season if they could. There are studies for the occupation and the usage of topography for several regions during the Paleolithic. The period when a livestyle with more permanent settlements comes up is about 9000+/- what is concerned the Near East. It should be later for the Americas. The settling goes hand in hand with the domestication of cereals, beans (emmer, wheat - mais in the Americas).

I'm sorry, I did use settlements liberally. The 'settlement' found in Monte Verde was perhaps a hunting lodge, and the settlements I speak of in the Persian Sea and the British Channel were perhaps more like camps than actual cities or towns or villages.

There are indeed archeological sites with structures in them dating back to this 17,000 year old period. I believe humans began making simple shelters of wooden posts covered with skins and grass towards the end of the Paleolothic. The remains of these temporary camps is what I imagine we are talking about here.

[Dr. Croccer]

There's a bit of a difference between a few hunting camps and a permanently settled city.

[Molly Norris]

I'm sorry, I did use settlements liberally. The 'settlement' found in Monte Verde was perhaps a hunting lodge, and the settlements I speak of in the Persian Sea and the British Channel were perhaps more like camps than actual cities or towns or villages.

There are indeed archeological sites with structures in them dating back to this 17,000 year old period. I believe humans began making simple shelters of wooden posts covered with skins and grass towards the end of the Paleolothic. The remains of these temporary camps is what I imagine we are talking about here.

Paleolithic archeologists have often to dig deep and can excavate only small surfaces often. They prefer therefore caves or similar localities where the chances are to find something at all after a while. There are some findspots close to the surface or even directly at the surface in modern deserts that allow a bit to say something about the hypothetical migration habits of paleolithic hunter-gatherer groups if one includes topographical factors and other environmental factors (animals, plants, water, vegetation etc.).

[Ramashan]

Very basic questions are:
- What do the findings indicate?
- What have been the natural conditions?
- Where did they get their calories from?
- What did they do in times when the supply of food was limited?
- What can be the maximal size of a group then, when this and that factor is known?

Monte Verde indicates a potential camp besides a river. That pretty much answers the rest of the questions. In Europe I would imagine it would have been winter camps. All the articles I've read on these camps or finds were of single or double wooden post structures and camp fires. Could have been a temporary hunting camp where they tanned the hides and treated the meat and moved on. Hard to tell.

Point is, there is evidence of some sort of wooden post dwelling in the paleolithic time.

And why do we need to answer your last two questions? When supplies ran low they moved on, and the size of the group doesn't really need to be know, could have been from a small family to a larger group who decide to work together in one location for a period before moving on.

I am most certainly not saying that these had to be permanent 'settlements' only that structures were built and people stayed there for a period of some time longer than a day or so.

[Molly Norris]

One should not underestimate the skills of paleolithic people, certainly. That they knew to work with wood and other perishable materials is documented. The range of possiblities can in some cases be close to that of people living a similar livestyle under similar conditions in historic periods where we know a little bit more about (tents, dogs as pack animals and/or preserved meat, boats, fishing nets, cloaths made by plants and animal skin, jewellery, etc. etc.).

[Zvornik]

the show that the topic author is talking about is "Ancient Aliens"
it talks about the ancient astronaut theory, it states that in the early ancient times some sort of extratorestrials(spelling?) visited earth and influenced the ancient peoples. The theory says the aliens helped build the Pyramids, this 17,000 year old city, and many other wonders and what have you. They compare ancient texts from the Bible and the Kuran and Indian religions and such and actually present a theory involving these ancient aliens with what all these texts say, and it actually makes more sense than the religions themselves.

It's way too deep to try and explain it here, you would just have to read books like "Chariots of the Gods" and such. It's a good read and also a good show.
I wish I could still watch it but I had to cancel cable

[Trax]

From the History Channel thread.

[Dr. Croccer]

Erich von Däniken and such is a load of insulting . I recall how he and others claimed that the heads on Easter Island must've been made by aliens, because the people were too simple-minded to build such things. In response, Thor Heyerdahl and Kon Tiki built a moai with traditional techniques.

[PointOfViewGun]

ORLY?

ORLY.

Are you thinking of the stones off the coast of Japan that may or may not be naturally forming. Crystal structure in rock can form quite straight cut shapes that can pass for man made. Just take a trip to Devils Tower to see this or any other similar place.

Now, there are loads of archeology under the seas. That is indeed a fact. Recently I've heard of research being done in the Persian Gulf and in the British Channel. There were most certainly settlements in these regions that flooded over after the Ice Age and also changes in coast lines due to erosion. But the level of sophisitcation is questionable.

It's not limited to just coast of Japan though I'm not sure if we're referring to the same locations. (EDIT: Looks like we are) The structures are too complex to be nature made. They're completely geometric in shape. Simple crystal cut shapes is not what you see in Japan and some other locations. They're much more complex than that.

[John I Tzimisces]

ORLY.




It's not limited to just coast of Japan though I'm not sure if we're referring to the same locations. (EDIT: Looks like we are) The structures are too complex to be nature made. They're completely geometric in shape. Simple crystal cut shapes is not what you see in Japan and some other locations. They're much more complex than that.

And what, exactly, is "too complex to be nature made?"

If geologists say "this is entirely consistent with the way sandstone behaves, especially in tectonically active regions", then I'm inclined to believe them, and indeed, the burden of proof is not on mainstream archaeologists to prove that they are not man-made, but rather the other side. And so far, there is no compelling evidence to suggest these are man-made structures, nor is it supported by a wealth of archaeological evidence that points to the first settlements (the Natufian mesolithic culture. Semi-sedentary, maybe, but oh well) starting around 15,000 years ago in the Levant.

Furthermore, yes, sea-levels were lower at the last glacial maximum (until, I think, the start of the Holocene 10kya): if there was some magical mysterious culture that started making these massive megaliths, and they are apparently widespread, why on earth is there no evidence of them on land? As in, really, NO evidence on land. No megaliths. No artifacts that point to anything but hunting and gathering being predominating until the Neolithic.

But, of course, there are always people who insist on believing this tripe just because it goes against the grain. Or, they believe Plato was actually being serious when he was talking about Atlantis.

[PointOfViewGun]

And what, exactly, is "too complex to be nature made?"

If geologists say "this is entirely consistent with the way sandstone behaves, especially in tectonically active regions", then I'm inclined to believe them, and indeed, the burden of proof is not on mainstream archaeologists to prove that they are not man-made, but rather the other side. And so far, there is no compelling evidence to suggest these are man-made structures, nor is it supported by a wealth of archaeological evidence that points to the first settlements (the Natufian mesolithic culture. Semi-sedentary, maybe, but oh well) starting around 15,000 years ago in the Levant.

Furthermore, yes, sea-levels were lower at the last glacial maximum (until, I think, the start of the Holocene 10kya): if there was some magical mysterious culture that started making these massive megaliths, and they are apparently widespread, why on earth is there no evidence of them on land? As in, really, NO evidence on land. No megaliths. No artifacts that point to anything but hunting and gathering being predominating until the Neolithic.

But, of course, there are always people who insist on believing this tripe just because it goes against the grain. Or, they believe Plato was actually being serious when he was talking about Atlantis.

Stairs, geometrically cut columns or blokes with consistent angles. Check the images. I have yet to see any proof or study showing any scientific explanation of these structures or examples of other sites where they're proven that those structures are nature-made. But, if some random scientists gonna claim that those structures are nature-made and show something completely incomparable structure that is really nature-made then I'll reserve my rights to believe in that man.

And claiming that these structures are man-made doesn't automatically mean that we're talking about Atlantis.

[John I Tzimisces]

Stairs, geometrically cut columns or blokes with consistent angles. Check the images. I have yet to see any proof or study showing any scientific explanation of these structures or examples of other sites where they're proven that those structures are nature-made. But, if some random scientists gonna claim that those structures are nature-made and show something completely incomparable structure that is really nature-made then I'll reserve my rights to believe in that man.

And claiming that these structures are man-made doesn't automatically mean that we're talking about Atlantis.

I don't think you understand that this is not accepted by anyone in the mainstream for obvious reasons. That these are man-made structures is accepted only by the fringe, because, frankly, the only evidence they are man-made is some people think they look man-made. There is zero evidence anywhere else pointing to this conclusion, and even the flimsy, sole argument that they're man-made based on limited investigation is contested by the much stronger argument of natural formation.

[Ahlerich]

Erich von Däniken and such is a load of insulting . I recall how he and others claimed that the heads on Easter Island must've been made by aliens, because the people were too simple-minded to build such things. In response, Thor Heyerdahl and Kon Tiki built a moai with traditional techniques.

isnt that the guy that also built a longboat also and went from danmark to the american coast with it?

[Fionn son of Cumhaill]

ORLY.




It's not limited to just coast of Japan though I'm not sure if we're referring to the same locations. (EDIT: Looks like we are) The structures are too complex to be nature made. They're completely geometric in shape. Simple crystal cut shapes is not what you see in Japan and some other locations. They're much more complex than that.

Look up your geography here man... Its basic plate tectonics and when a volcanos erupt underwater the basalt forms in a pyramidal form due to the lava rapidly cooling when it comes into contact with the air. Add to this the fact Japan is located on the Pacific Ring of Fire just put two and two together. Now if your talking about Thera on Santorini thats way outside our timescale and again Geography comes into play not conspiracy theories about aliens and the Illuminati...

If your talking about Caesarea then again its basic geopgraphy, coastal erosion mixed with rising sea levels, and as such all these ridiculous threories the History Channel loves to throw in our face other than during Hitler Week can be explained away

[legate]

The history channel does 2 main topics very badly, ww2 and the ing egyptians. Do you expect them to be accurate on this?

[René Artois]

Look up your geography here man... Its basic plate tectonics and when a volcanos erupt underwater the basalt forms in a pyramidal form due to the lava rapidly cooling when it comes into contact with the air. Add to this the fact Japan is located on the Pacific Ring of Fire just put two and two together. Now if your talking about Thera on Santorini thats way outside our timescale and again Geography comes into play not conspiracy theories about aliens and the Illuminati...

If your talking about Caesarea then again its basic geopgraphy, coastal erosion mixed with rising sea levels, and as such all these ridiculous threories the History Channel loves to throw in our face other than during Hitler Week can be explained away

When an underwater eruption occurs on a constructive plate margin, the basalt eruptions form what are known as 'Pillow lava' which is shaped like... pillows - very rounded in shape. As it happens on constructive plate margins, it does not occur in Japan nowadays (in Geological time meaning in the past few million years) This is because, as you said, it is the Ring of Fire, which is a massive subduction zone, so the plates involved do not produce basaltic lava. Pillow lavas come from basaltic eruptions - non violent. Eruptions on the pacific ring of fire? Very violent. Just look at a nearby volcano:

Pillow Lava

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

[Dr. Croccer]

isnt that the guy that also built a longboat also and went from danmark to the american coast with it?

Yes, and a Phoenician ship from Morocco to the Caribbean and a Polynesian ship from some island to South America IIRC. He's awesome.

[PointOfViewGun]

I don't think you understand that this is not accepted by anyone in the mainstream for obvious reasons. That these are man-made structures is accepted only by the fringe, because, frankly, the only evidence they are man-made is some people think they look man-made. There is zero evidence anywhere else pointing to this conclusion, and even the flimsy, sole argument that they're man-made based on limited investigation is contested by the much stronger argument of natural formation.

They're indeed rarely studied but I haven't really seen much of a counter-argument from the scientists. Link. Seems like there are indeed conflicting views but even then one of them accepts partial man-madeness. The very fact that there is a huge diversity of geometric shapes instead of one or two like in other nature-made structures is proof enough for me at the moment to think that they're man-made.

Look up your geography here man... Its basic plate tectonics and when a volcanos erupt underwater the basalt forms in a pyramidal form due to the lava rapidly cooling when it comes into contact with the air. Add to this the fact Japan is located on the Pacific Ring of Fire just put two and two together. Now if your talking about Thera on Santorini thats way outside our timescale and again Geography comes into play not conspiracy theories about aliens and the Illuminati...

If your talking about Caesarea then again its basic geopgraphy, coastal erosion mixed with rising sea levels, and as such all these ridiculous threories the History Channel loves to throw in our face other than during Hitler Week can be explained away

If you actually take a look at the pictures of those structures you'd see something more of a volcanic activity and its consequences.

[Trax]

Yes, and a Phoenician ship from Morocco to the Caribbean and a Polynesian ship from some island to South America IIRC. He's awesome.

He crossed the Atlantic on a Egyptian papyrus ship (twice) and the Pacific on a balsa raft.

He also built a Sumerian ship and sailed from Iraq to Pakistan with it.

[godol shmok]

He made trips to Azerbaijan, too.

I hope Scandinavians and Azerijs here allow this little joke.


Note the text on the stone tablet.