Guide/experiment: How to charge with cav

[notger]

I just did a small test series, involving Austrian Kürassier and British Line Infantry, in order to figure out of how to assault properly. (Custom battle, 1on1, no experience points bought, flat terrain (Flanders), starting in a trot and accelerating outside of the infantries fire range, hitting them in their middle from the front. Three tries for each formation, averaged the results.)

I tried four formations for my cav (large unit size, normal difficulty), while the infantry was in three rows deep standard walking formation:

a) standard formation, four rows deep
b) line formation, two rows deep
c) diamond formation
d) spear formation, two colums, twenty rows

I walked up to the Brits, charged while outside their gun range and broke the battle off, as soon as the finishing option came.

Here are the results:
a) always a clear win, with 94 / 15 (kills/losses respectively)
b) always a clear loss, with 40 / 40
c) mostly losses, due to the infantry forming squares in mid-melee with 45 / 40
d) always a clear loss, with approx. 50 / 40, enemy formed square in mid-melee, again


- The AI tends to form a square while in melee if that melee protracts.
- If the AI forms a square, the cavalry is lost.
- The infantry can always form a square, even if the cav units split the infantry in two parts.
- The inital volley can be underridden, if the infantry is moving and if you are running all the way through their fire arc. This is especially important, since the inital volley kills 8-10 of your men, kills your impact and eventually lets you lose.
- Strangely enough, I did not saw the AI form a square even once or launch an initial volley when I attacked with standard formation a).
- When using formations c) and d), I perceived my cav walking very slow. I thought they were also gallopping slower, which explains why they were subject to the initial volley, which they weren't when using a).

Conclusion:
-> Hit them hard and fast, retreat after about twenty seconds of melee, if no rout is achieved.
-> Attack in formation a), four rows deep, standard line-up. Do not try fancy stuff.

[coman]

Not all cavalry charges are created equally. Unsupported cavalry against infantry, or frontal hits on infantry are not so good. Essentially in a prolonged melee, the horsemen have to single out a target, and they are extremely vulnerable to any form of bayonet. Given that horse is 45 men versus 120... You're lucky to see many survivors.

Sword cavalry need to hang around and fight as you state. Try letting them wade in, then move then right back out away from the firing arcs of the line.

Lance cavalry hits, and must immediately wheel out, OR pass straight through and circle around.

Formations are meant to be for charging, once the unit hits, un-click the formation and let them spread out for melee.

[Keline]

By rows and lines, do you mean rank and file or file and rank?

[notger]

Right, coman, but that was not my point. I was trying to figure out which formation you would want to use when using the cav in an all-out-18th-century-Villars-Marlborough-frontal-assault. And I wanted to know, how much the benefit of the diamond formation was (turned out to be no benefit at all).
Though my not unclicking the diamond formation could have skewed the results. Will have to check that.
Anyway, you can't do any better than the standard formation and I have never had the impression, that any of the other three formation works significantly better, be it in the impact or afterwards.

Keline, rows are horizontally when looking from your unit to the enemy, the first row compromises the soldiers that hit into the enemy first. Every row looks into the back of the row in front of it. Columns are then aligned vertically. Rank and file ... I am not sure about these words, being not native speaker.

[Keline]

Keline, rows are horizontally when looking from your unit to the enemy, the first row compromises the soldiers that hit into the enemy first. Every row looks into the back of the row in front of it. Columns are then aligned vertically. Rank and file ... I am not sure about these words, being not native speaker.

I see.

Rows = Rank then and Lines are File (Fire by Rank ability for example)

[Bocah_Bali]

I suspect the diamond formation is useful when against another cavalry or being surrounded by melee infantry (no square formation). Probably the former, need to test that though.

[coman]

Diamond keeps the unit cohesive and adds defenses to individual riders getting picked off. Takes some skill to use, but when employed properly, allows for some very daring cavalry maneuvers.

[Torn Sage]

Excellent guide. Keep it coming.

[hilikusopus]

Diamond keeps the unit cohesive and adds defenses to individual riders getting picked off. Takes some skill to use, but when employed properly, allows for some very daring cavalry maneuvers.

Yep. The diamond is intended for maneuverability. Try racing a cav unit around the field in different formations, and you'll see just how effective a diamond formation can be. It's great for making changes on the fly during a very fluid battle. As a sidenote, I don't know how effective it would be in a cav v infantry charge but, since form seems to have little effect in cav v cav, the <> is great if you need to intercept enemy cav!

[MyKingforahorse]

I wish I could take video, fraps no likey my PC

IN any event, diamond formation is not only great for keeping your unit cohesive during fast movements but its great for quick punches through enemy lines.

For instance, say that a single point in the enemy line has a kink where its only lightly defend or a few ranks deep. You can with diamond formation literally run your Calvary through the line formation with little loss. Reform on the other side and then properly charge.

I've attached a pic to try and explain it better, but the area you are shooting for is one in which there is a gap in the line large enough to exploit and field behind the line enough for you to reform and charge proper either back around or screen their rear lines.

Think like a trap block in football and it'll make perfect sense.

[notger]

Keline, now I got it ... I used "lines" once (corrected that), but it had to be rows. The infantry was aligned in the standard firing fashion, three rows/lines/ranks deep and thus 40 columns/files wide.

Sorry for the confusion.


Coman: I think, the movement of diamond formation is bugged. They move considerably slower (when on maximum time acceleration, they moved as fast as on normal time acceleration in the standard formation), like walking in swamp!
What you say is supposed to happen, but in reality (at least in my test series), it did not happen. Diamond formation right now does not work properly (in this set-up). But maybe this is just me. Is this diamond formation working for everyone else?

[coman]

What units are you using and what form of situation? My testing is all coming out of grand campaign battles against the AI.

[Bocah_Bali]

Allright... did an experiment with diamond formation against another cavalry. Here is what I find from my game.

Condition:
- Custom land battle
- Flat terrain map
- Mirror faction (both me and AI are using British)
- Same class cavalry (both use Life Guard)
- Start off with diamond formation, no charge (running) until both force were close enough. This is to preserve the stamina of my cavalry.

Attempt 1 result:
Initial charge gave my cavalry advantage dwindling their ranks. Half of enemy cavalries fell, later with their general. Few seconds later, my general died. The tide seems to turned as my cavalry is distraught by the recent losses. It now my turn to drop like flies, but in the end the enemy was routed.
Kills : 24
Loss : 21

Attempt 2 result:
Several enemy cavalry dropping like flies by the charge. By the middle of the battle, both generals died. Now it is a tug of war battle, as the balance of force shifting constantly making both forces in even numbers. Enemy routed.
Kills : 26
Loss : 20

Attempt 3 result:
This time my charge was bit late and the gap was a little bit too near. Enemy forces suffered great casualties, 18 were killed in few seconds. Later enemy general died, then they routed.
Kills : 20
Loss : 4

Conclusion (?)
The results varied. But in the end you can pretty much win but with great losses. Stamina, and stats still dominate the outcome.
Did a single experiment before doing the mirror match, with British life guard (AI) against Prussian Household Cavalry (Me).

My household cavalry were winning at first, but halfway they start taking losses and ended in route of defeat. Unfortunately I forgot to check the kill/loss on that one.

[MyKingforahorse]

Diamond also works well for when you need to 'punch' through a spot in an enemy line, perhaps at an attempt to silence some arty fire for instance. You more or less use your cavalry much in the same manner that it was used in Shogun by having them run head long at a spot behind the enemy lines.

[notger]

Coman: Flat terrain, custom battle, no exp bought, 1on1, brit line inf (AI) against austrian curassiers (me).
(Updated the initial post.)

Due to the ever changing circumstances, you cannot test in the grand campaign. You have to set up a test lab that is as reproducable as possible.

Bocah_Bali: Did the AI-cavalry make a counter-charge?

What you suggest is, that the diamond formation is rather an anti-cav formation than an anti-inf-formation?

[coman]

notger,

I have two computers and two copies of special forces. I can test under controlled circumstances.

[guerra]

I have a cavalry guide which may help, if you like.

www.tobattle.blogspot.com

[Hellman109]

Read the details on the diamond formation.

The main advantage is that you can change direction quickly without trouble. Changing the direction of the wedge was slow and hard, for the diamond they turn 'on the spot' EG, no realigning, and they are in a new direction.

[notger]

Coman, that is what I call a controlled experiment.

To put one thing clear ... does anyone of you experience the diamond formation as being much slower than the standard walking order, or is it just me and is bugged?
For me, they are only crawling along with weird stuttering animations that look as if they were too close.

I do see the advantage, the diamond formation gives in special circumstances (breakthrough to reform ... ). But honestly, I would prefer the standard formation anytime else.

[fluffstalker]

Like the wedge formation in Mid Two, it has its uses in small niches, but ultimately if I had a choice of which to deploy my cav in at the beginning of the game, standard formation takes the cake every time. And Ive noticed that standard formation actually breaks through much easier - diamond and wedge both just get lodged in the first ranks of the enemy, then horses start getting pulled down. Better to get increased coverage when you charge.

I would use diamond to navigate around obstacles, other units and only then to charge other cavalry.