Mod Resources - audio copyright debate

[Achilla]

I'd like to discuss the problematic case of copyrighted material in current and upcoming modifications of TW games. A while ago, Dewy over http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=237646 brought up a matter of fact, that BC uses copyrighted music, in fact not only limiting to samples taken from Guild Wars (Jeremy Soule is composer) but also from other bands which I will not call by name to not make things worse for BC devs further. What I'd like to discuss or perhaps ask, o'wise gentlemen and ladies over this forum is whether strict prohibity of ANY copyrighted (in theory) material should be enforced by law leading to a possible witchhunt (I don't like the mod so let's report it for copyrighted material! Yeah!) or maybe the matter should be left alone as long as the mod developer doesn't DIRECTLY inform of using copyrighted material without permission in the mod.

What I want to say is that as for now, in my opinion using copyrighted material such as a music wasn't a problem as long as nobody mentioned it's existence in a particular mod. This leads to strict leak of justice, where some mods retain such material and the others have to remove it. Last but not least, everyone here is mature enough and intelligent to understand that majority of modders don't have the means or the funds to create own music just for the mod. By far, all of us, modders, voluntarily offer our own time to bring to the public possibly completed and good mods, that don't only look and play nice, but always sound different from vanilla (we wouldn't mod the game if it's state was satisfactory?). As such, I don't quite understand the whole problem not in LEGAL, but practical terms of life. If you plan to investigate cases of use of copyrighted material without permission only when they are brought up and ignore (damn, thanks God nobody brought this up about X mod, it would be too lame to put it down because of copyright!) the rest, it's, like I've said, strick leak of justice in any form and shape.

What I wouldn't want to see is some kind of 'hate' over the forums and reporting frenzy, because, whether it will turn out to witchhunt and fanboy wars, or TWC staff will decide to check every mod out for use of copyrighted material before letting the community to even download the mod (sick!), the end result will be the same - 99% mods will have vanilla music and just 1% of those rare ones supported by artists and composers (usually money or befriending case) will offer alternative audio experience. I think it will reflect poorly on entire modding scene.

To sum up:

1) banning all copyright material and putting down mods using it is not an option
2) selectively banning copyrighted material in particular mods where the case has been brought up is neither an option
3) completely allowing use of copyrighted material is not an option, too, for couple of reasons you would have posted if you wanted to

Here comes the question, what's the solution to this rising problem? Is it just me or I think that TWC staff only wants to not be sued for promoting illegal activities so the site won't be closed and nobody sued to the court?

In this case, is 'selective interventionism' still a doctrine, whence everyday going to bed you pray to God that some 'noob' won't make a post about illegal material of your favourite or 'looking forward to' mod, so you won't have to put the mod down until such content is removed?

I believe TWC staff is aware that it's fairly impossible to ask the known composer directly whether or not he would permit use in all or in parts of his music and whether edited/mixed or not, since it ends up usually in ignored e-mail or useless disputes with that composer's publisher that wants to sell albums, not to publish them for free?

So, willing to ask, TWC Staff, what you are going to do? Hiding head in sand or maybe looking in the very eyes of what you fear might happen over TWC? Solution, ladies and gentlemen? I believe it's a good time to discuss this fully, without unnecessary drama and tabu floating around.

Your turn, I'll gladly listen to you out, TWC members and Staff!

Truth will liberate you!

[MasterOfNone]

I have always asked for permission to use music - except in the case of earlier music from the TW series - and have gone to great lengths to do so.

I spent some time "brokering" a deal with the musicians behind the Celtic music for Gods & Fighting Men (for example) - emails and phone calls. On FATW too we always contacted the musicians and got permission. (it's why their names and track names appear on the GaFm interface in case anyone was wondering)

Music, imagery and video from movies and albums are very blatant - concepts less so. So I would not have a problem with a mod based on a novel, but a mod based on a film that uses the imagery/video/music I think might be put TWC in danger of copyright breach.

I would also consider it wrong for historical mods to use images from Osprey etc. or for them to copy text from historical works (note: Anglo-Saxon Chronicle and the like not included of course )

[Halie Satanus]

I've used music from movies and composed my own, time is generally the deciding factor, and quality. Music is sooo important to a mod and truth is there just aren't enough resources out there to make finding the exact right piece anything less than a mission worthy of Alexander. I guess big mod teams have less of an excuse but I've never been in one so meh!. I sleep well enough due to the fact I made my own music for EoDII and released it to the community, if people wish to take umbrage I say 'a pox on ye'..

I'm not sure about the legalities as far as TWC is concerned, if a mod is actually hosted here I should think TWC (Garb) would be culpable, however I can't see it going beyond an order for files to be removed. I doubt anyone would get rich by suing Garb..

I asked another, very well known modder, a couple of years ago for his advice on using music from movies since he had done just that and I was considering doing the same. His reply was ''Of course I didn't ask permission. Look, movie companies aren't interested in little mods in a niche gaming community. Its nothing to worry about.''

edit (having read the other thread);;

Writing to a composer to ask permission to use 'published' work is a waste of time. Composers don't own the right to distribute their own work because they, in the majority of cases, sold the distribution rights.

pps, If of course you wish to use unpublished work that belongs to some struggling artist who hasn't a pot to piss in nor a window to throw it out of, then you really should try and broker a deal. Given a mod is a way of advertising a composers work across the world to a possible audience in the thousands then I can imagine many will be only to happy to contribute.